Remodeling refrigerator & stove area (was: electric fridge)

[HoosierB]

Hmmm... Now what would be perfect is to keep them where they are and remove the generator, so the refrigerator could be lower and still be in "its" spot. The kicker is that I don't even USE the generator, but it somehow seems wrong to remove it. So I probably won't.

I would'd keep the genny. If you're changing to an AC/DC only fridge, having the added convenience of self-contained power when boon docking for short periods would make a big difference in peace of mind. And yes... that old Dometic leaves quite a hole. Glad to hear your extraction was successful!

[Blue~Go]

Kind of fun that we're both doing similar projects at the same time. I'll try to post some photos.

I tell you though, you have me considering/re-considering the stove/fridge layout! With the fridge I'm planning on (Vitrifrigo 130/separate compressor), I had been planning on putting it in the fridge space (and like you, adding foam insulation to the sides/top/etc.,). As you know, being on top of the generator box means the countertop above it would be at something like 44". Not bad at all for a set-down counter, or a place to put things on my way in and out, but..... if I put the refrigerator in the stove space (which is only on top of the wheelwell - lower than the gen box) I can have one continuous countertop at just about 36" high (which is typical countertop height, conveniently).

Added to that, I'm debating between keeping my 3-burner stove/oven (love the oven; no need for three burners at all, they take up a lot of counterspace), removing it and going with a two-burner cooktop only, or removing it and going with a two-burner cooktop with oven (takes up less counterspace - would leave 10" or so of clear space behind the burners).

I think the biggest surprise "wow" factor right now is having that microwave cabinet out (the one above the stove). I knew it was oppressive, but it was even worse than I realized (for me, others may like it).

PS: I see what you mean about the ninety-jillion Robertson drive screws. Every time I turned around I was removing another dozen of them.

[HoosierB]

Kind of fun that we're both doing similar projects at the same time. I'll try to post some photos.

I tell you though, you have me considering/re-considering the stove/fridge layout! With the fridge I'm planning on (Vitrifrigo 130/separate compressor), I had been planning on putting it in the fridge space (and like you, adding foam insulation to the sides/top/etc.,). As you know, being on top of the generator box means the countertop above it would be at something like 44". Not bad at all for a set-down counter, or a place to put things on my way in and out, but..... if I put the refrigerator in the stove space (which is only on top of the wheelwell - lower than the gen box) I can have one continuous countertop at just about 36" high (which is typical countertop height, conveniently).

Added to that, I'm debating between keeping my 3-burner stove/oven (love the oven; no need for three burners at all, they take up a lot of counterspace), removing it and going with a two-burner cooktop only, or removing it and going with a two-burner cooktop with oven (takes up less counterspace - would leave 10" or so of clear space behind the burners).

I think the biggest surprise "wow" factor right now is having that microwave cabinet out (the one above the stove). I knew it was oppressive, but it was even worse than I realized (for me, others may like it).

PS: I see what you mean about the ninety-jillion Robertson drive screws. Every time I turned around I was removing another dozen of them.

Blue-Go,

Just to offer up another point of view...
Having the new fridge under the microwave gives added fridge door opening space. The clear countertop above is a great "buffet/food prep" area right behind the dinette.
The Atwood 2 burner was a decent choice based on reviews and price. I looked at several "marine quality" cooktops for much more $$$, but realized you were paying for the unit to be "gimbaled" for seaworthiness. The Ramblewood 2 burner was really nice but was almost 3x the price, and only looked good installed longwise, front to back. Not a good idea having to reach over burners when cooking, best to have side by side. Never found a 2 burner w/oven combo you mentioned.
FYI: The microwave which fit my reduced cabinet size is the Frigidaire FFCM0934LB 900-watt Countertop Microwave, 0.9 Cubic Feet, Black. Only $99 from Amazon.

[Blue~Go]

Just to offer up another point of view...

Always welcome - especially when I'm trying to make a decision.

Having the new fridge under the microwave gives added fridge door opening space.

Curious which way you are going to have it open? Hinge forward seems more like it opens into the kitchen, but then again, hinge aft has it opening to the main room, say if you wanted to grab a beverage or something. I guess the latter would be my choice.

The clear countertop above is a great "buffet/food prep" area right behind the dinette.

That would certainly be nice. I ran into another "thing" though, which is that even in the "stove position," the refrigerator I'd like would result in a 38"+ high countertop (because it still has to sit on top of the wheelwell, it's 31" high, and then a countertop above that). I don't suppose 38" would be horrible, but it kind of clashes with the upper cabinets - not leaving much space.

If I go with the same 'fridge but put it over the generator box, then that "upper counter" would be at around 46" -- but then of course it wouldn't be used as an active kitchen counter. Still much better than what existed with the big fridge, and I could easily set things there when getting them out. I'd be gaining 3" of hall width, which makes a surprising difference from what I can tell so far (I don't have the old fridge side walls all the way out yet - just have the front piece of MDF off).

I looked into a pair of drawer units, one fridge and one freezer (and then give up the oven), but whoo, they are super pricey. I can justify a lot for my "baby," but probably not those (plus it's two compressors to run). I could go with a different fridge, but there is a big jump down in size to get the counter height down, and of course I'm already going smaller than the original.

Tomorrow I'm going to finish removing the kitchen "boxes" and then do some "CAD" (cardboard-aided design) to try various things out.

Never found a 2 burner w/oven combo you mentioned.

They're a marine stove, and they are quite nice (had one on a boat years ago). They are also in a whole 'nother league, price wise. However they have the advantage of only being two burners, and just 14.5" deep. OTOH, my current range is in great shape and works, so perhaps I'll just come up with a cover for the rear section (right now you have to have all three burners covered, or none of them).

[HoosierB]

Blue-Go,

Fridge door will open hinge forward, so when open, it will be up next to the back of the dinette seat.

I got the same math when looking at the 'Frigo 130. That's a nice 4.7 cuf fridge. But 38"+ is just too tall for my counter.
The C75, 2.6 cuf is the next step down (the unit I'm configuring my design with).

Now that you mention it, I did see a marine stove available with two burners. All stainless, had built-in pot holder brackets, recessed gimbaled cooktop... very fancy ($$$$)!

Does your 3 burner have the hinged Corian lid?

Would love to see pics of your "CAD" mockups!

[Blue~Go]

Does your 3 burner have the hinged Corian lid?

No, mine has the folding black-painted metal lid. Then the counter around the range is Corian (as is the sink counter). Normally I'd consider Corian an upgrade, but I can't imagine having such a heavy lid (like what if you forget to fold it down and it falls down..?). The metal lid is very lightweight, and folds similarly to the Corian one. Still, I'm sure the Corian seamless effect is nice.

What I would like (if I keep this range) is a cover that I could keep half deployed, so it would expose the front burner but allow the part over the rear burners to be "countertop." As made, the split is too far forward so the back half of the cover comes too close to the front burner, IMO.

Would love to see pics of your "CAD" mockups!

I will see if I can snap some. Of course it's kind of a "complete disaster" in there, as I'm sure you can imagine

[HoosierB]

I would be very interested in pics of the closet/fridge wall with the fridge removed. Especially the frame work and attachment to the inner outside wall and ceiling. The PO of my rig hacked that whole panel up. Not much left of the original construction.

Thanks

[Blue~Go]

Sure, no problem. That's all exposed in my rig right now. I'll take some photos and post them.

For now, here are a couple I had saved from someone else's job on a 2002. They're a bit difficult to make out, but for now...

Looking up. The white sections you see toward the rear are thin material that is like the face of the vinyl walls around the stove. It looks like it was cut and placed in toward the wall to provide a place for them to lay in silicone to seal off the refrigerator compartment (required with a propane refrigerator). I have removed these (they are just stapled on) and after that you just have the 1/2" plywood wall that separates the fridge from the stove (5/8" with vinyl/wood stove side facing included), and the 1/2" MDF wall that separates the refrigerator compartment from the closet.

The wires you see are the same on mine, and it looks like they had begun to chafe on the refrigerator. Just marks in the insulation at this point, but I'll be glad to get them in some loom and better secured.

Overview:

Again, the above photos are not mine - I'll get some though.

[Blue~Go]

I would be very interested in pics of the closet/fridge wall with the fridge removed. Especially the frame work and attachment to the inner outside wall and ceiling. The PO of my rig hacked that whole panel up. Not much left of the original construction.

Thanks

Here are some photos taken during demo/mockup phase (I can only post three per post, so will make multiple "replies").

First, looking down toward the base of the refrigerator compartment, sans refrigerator:

A closer view of the bottom area, minus the face frame and tip-out door that cover the generator box. Side note, on mine, all sides but one of the gen box are covered in carpet/padding - but the forward side is just the sheet metal box. I'm going to remove it all and use some Second Skin products that are designed for this sort of thing.

Next is looking lower left (actually forward in vehicle terms) of the box. You can see some of the thin vinyl-covered wallboard around the gas line. Most of it was out before I took these photos, but basically all around the refrigerator compartment where the side walls joined the outer wall they had used sections of this to close up any gaps and there was white caulk all around the edges. As I'm sure you know, the combustion part of an absorption refrigerator is supposed to be sealed from the living space. Also, of course there is free air/dust flow in the area between the upper and lower vents, so that needed to be sealed off as well. These panels were around 12" wide - you can sort of see the difference in plywood color where I have removed them. They were stapled/caulked in place.

[Blue~Go]

Here are the upper side walls of the refrigerator compartment. First the forward/left side (stove wall). Where you see the lighter colored plywood areas is where the white vinyl wallboard (maybe 1/16" thick) was stapled/caulked to the sidewalls and butted/caulked to the outer wall as well.

And the same view but of the rear/right/closet side. Again you can sort of visually extrapolate and see where I have already removed additional sections of the white/vinyl/caulked/stapled sections. The reason the melamine/"wood"/MDF wall looks scuzzy is that fiberglass insulation was spray-glued to it.

One note is that the wall dividing the stove and refrigerator (as well as the opposing wall dividing the sink and shower) are 1/2" plywood, as opposed to the other walls which are MDF/Melamine. These two walls are somewhat "structural" in that they help hold the sidewalls in shape (otherwise they are a bit floppy, as fiberglass is). They are not tabbed in or in any way as structural as say, a bulkhead on a boat, but they do contribute. In my case the stove/refrigerator plywood wall was not actually screwed to the outer wall, but it was fastened to the ceiling, and then the stove was fastened to the wall, and then things were caulked and then that whole conglomeration worked together to stiffen things up. If you look at the Chinook wall drawings I matched up the wood strips in my walls (which were easy to see with everything out) and they do match up almost exactly to the drawings. From that you can tell which fasteners are really doing things and how to ensure any new construction is as good or better.

Another note is that while it didn't seem to negatively affect anything, the area where the forward side wall of the closet (between fridge and closet) and the outside of the rig meet... well, that "joinery" was a bit shakey. Again, nothing that actually caused anything negative, but definitely could be improved. They relied on those vinyl/wood caulked in sections to do some closet sealing there.

Now, on to mockups.

Basically, I have four options. The refrigerator that is my first choice is 4.7 cu. ft. with a separate compressor. The separate compressor is nice for a couple of reasons. For one thing, the bottom shelf of the refrigerator is a real, full-depth shelf instead of a wee fragile half-depth drawer (or on some other models the freezer gets smaller, depending on where they put a built-in compressor), and for another you can insulate the snot out of the refrigerator box as it needs zero ventilation. Then too, you can provide lots of air for the compressor (separately). That's the route I'm going regardless of fridge model.

So, four options:

1) The bigger refrigerator (of the two I'm considering) is 31" tall. If put on top of the generator box (old refrigerator position), that's like a bar height counter (around 43" tall). Then the stove stays in its usual place at a regular counter height (which will likely be around 34" as opposed to the Chinook stock 31-7/8" on the Concourse, which is pretty low - standard kitchen height is 36").

2) Put the bigger refrigerator in the "stove place" which would sit on top of the wheelwell. (Wheel well is about 6" tall, generator box is around 13" tall.) Then move the stove to where the refrigerator goes. This almost yields one long "normal" counter height, but not quite because it all ends up being around 38" tall.

3) Go with the smaller refrigerator (Hoosier I think it going with this one) and put it in the refrigerator spot. This ends up being similar to #2.

4) Go with the smaller refrigerator and do the switcheroo, as in #2. This ends up with a long/low counter as in #2, but can achieve a more normal counter height (34" or so).


I really don't want the smaller refrigerator (it's quite a bit smaller, around 2.6 cu. ft as opposed to the larger one at 4.7 cu. ft), and I also didn't really like the switcheroo of stove/fridge spots. Which way to have the fridge open was one reason, and the other was that I was looking forward to having a "staging counter" that was optionally part of the kitchen but not "really" part of the kitchen. I go out hiking or other places and like a spot (besides the floor or couch) to set things I want to take with me, or am bringing in. I can also use it as a kitchen set down space, but it doesn't "always have to be" kitchen. This fits with option #1 and the bigger fridge with the higher "bar height" counter. So I'm pretty sure I'm going with option #1, although I can see the other options being good too, just depending on personal taste/usage patterns.

Here is a mockup of the "bigger" fridge in the refrigerator position, where it would have a bar height countertop (option #1). The red line on the left is the stove counter top line, more or less:

Note the un-loomed wires up near the top of the compartment. These had some "marks" in the insulation that I think were caused by the back of the refrigerator. No actual rub-throughs to bare wire, but I'm glad that I can now protect them better.