Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

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kdarling
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Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by kdarling »

Okay, 1994 Concourse here. Which means the main circuit box is under the refrigerator, with the separate converter box under the stove.

Back last Fall, I was using a power saw outside, plugged into the passenger side under-awning outlets. One day, I heard a loud 'clack' sound almost like a circuit breaker popping and the power went off. Then it immediately came back, then went off permanently a few seconds later.

I figured there was a hidden automatic breaker for the outside outlets, but winter came before I could get time to get interested in solving it.

==

Fast forward to today, when I suddenly realized that not only was my refrigerator not getting 110v, but neither were the two under-cabinet outlets on that passenger side of the RV.

Weirdly, the GFI outlet on the opposite (driver's) side and all those cabinet outlets are fine. (So are the AC, microwave and converter circuits.)

And of course both sides are covered by a single breaker in the main panel. So obviously it's okay, since one side of the RV coming from that breaker works.

Anyone know if there was some other circuit breaker that was hidden behind the refrigerator or something?

(scratching my head, before becoming resigned to tearing things apart - grin)

Kev
1994 Concourse dinette, Ford 7.5L (460 V8)
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Blue~Go
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by Blue~Go »

That sounds different enough from my '99 that I can't say for sure. But, just in case it helps, here is the path to the outside outlet on the passenger side (in my case, just outboard of the stove area).

1) "Outlets" breaker in main breaker box
2) First actual outlet which is the GFCI outlet by the rear/bathroom door in the hall.
3) Then nothing but Romex type wire. It goes from that first (GFCI) outlet, up and over the rear door (behind that "roll" of ceiling carpet over the door which easily removes). Once it hits the passenger rear corner it drops straight down in the corner joint area (where side of rig meets back of rig), runs across the closet "lowest floor" along the outside wall, then goes up and over the generator box (still by the wall, basically under the fridge lower vent frame), then to the outside outlet, then straight up (behind stove outboard wall panel to, IIRC, "porch light" (if you have one), then to outlets in upper passenger side overhead cabinet. (The microwave outlet is on its own circuit.)

I know you said the main GFCI was fine, but does your outside outlet have its own GFCI function. Doesn't totally fit the symptoms, I don't think, but....

I can't remember where the refrigerator 110 outlet came in but it was on the regular "outets" circuit on my rig, so I think maybe that main wire passed through there on its way across the generator box.

Likely not the same as yours, but maybe some clue? The AC wires head over to the passenger side in two looms on mine. The outlets wire and air-con wire are in one loom, and the microwave and generator wires are in the other one. The loom is held in place by P-clips every foot or so. (The DC wires have their own loom.)

Are your symptoms the same if running on generator? That would isolate it to the shore power cord leg.
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jlarry214
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by jlarry214 »

Someone on the other board had the same thing and it was a bad GFI. Can't explain it but it fixed their problem.

Larry
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kdarling
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by kdarling »

Thanks to both of you for making me think more about this.

In my 94, the GFI outlet is above the kitchen sink.

Thinking back on a GFI that failed, and which I replaced in our home bathroom, I had forgotten that they can have a protected Load output on the back... which must be how the protected power continues on over to the passenger side outlets, fridge and outside.

After doing a little more reading, it seems that GFI outlets made prior to about 1997 could fail in such a way that their rear Load output would stop, even while its own built in front outlets still worked with the Test and Reset. This sounds like my symptoms.

Tomorrow I'll check the Load output on the back of the GFI to see if any power is there. If it is, then I'll be back to having to trace onward to where a probable broken line is.

But I'm hoping that there'll be no power coming out the back, which should mean the problem is the GFI itself.
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1994 Concourse dinette, Ford 7.5L (460 V8)
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kdarling
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by kdarling »

Okay..

Had a few minutes before work this morning, and took out the GFI outlet. Two surprises:

1) Lots of little ants behind the socket. Googling around, apparently we should all be spraying our shore power cords with ant repellent, because that's one major way that ants often get in. (I'd already put in screens over all the furnace / fridge vents to keep out flying insects and mice. Didn't even think about ants!)

2) There are NO output wires attached to the GFI Load terminals. So, the official schematic was not followed in my Chinook, and the passenger side power does NOT come through that GFI.

Durn. No easy fix via that GFI, like I hoped.

Now I guess I'll have to pull out the main breaker box and see exactly where the wires go from it. I'm hoping maybe there's another GFI hidden behind it, or perhaps it's in another outlet and I haven't noticed it. (It'd likely have been easier than running wires up and back across the body, as Blue described for later models.)
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SMan
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by SMan »

FWIW I bought a 1993 Tioga Montara motorhome new in 1993. After a few years of ownership I was has having issues with dead outlets in the 110 volt electrical system. Turned out it was loose lugs in the fuse/breaker panel. One wire was severely burned and required replacement. The repair facility said that loose lugs in the panels of RV's is a fairly common occurrence.

Hope you get your problem solved!
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Blue~Go
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by Blue~Go »

kdarling wrote: I'm hoping maybe there's another GFI hidden behind it, or perhaps it's in another outlet and I haven't noticed it. (It'd likely have been easier than running wires up and back across the body, as Blue described for later models.)
Just as a note (since maybe my earlier one wasn't totally clear - you know how it is when you are trying to describe something with words only), on my era rig there would be no "easier than running wires up and back across the body." Reason is that the source of all power (the brown box) is on the driver's side (beneath the sink counter), and the outside outlet is on the passenger side (outboard of the stove base counter). In other words, all the power on the passenger side has to come from the driver's side somehow (for all circuits). Hence why there is a raft of wires that heads over the rear door (four AC wires, and about 15 DC ones, all in loom). True, the generator is on the passenger side, but its power goes straight over the the automatic transfer switch/brown box on the driver's side before anything in the rig sees it.

The AC wire that goes over to the passenger side goes from the first outlet (which is the GFI one, and in my rig is in the entry hall between the door and the shower about a foot up from the floor). So it's just passing through that outlet on its way to power all the other outlets. It doesn't come "back" to the driver's side ever. Just goes through various outlets on the passenger side, ending with the one in the overcab that faces inward next to where there was originally a VCR in my rig and dead ends there. When/if that hallway GFI outlet trips, none of the other outlets should work (I realize "should" and "mysteriously does/doesn't" aren't always the same! That did happen in my rig once, but I don't remember if I checked every last outlet. Essentially a bunch of outlets and things plugged into them quit working, I re-set the GFI, and it all started working again. (This was when I had just gotten it.) (So far has never happened again.)

I realize your rig is perhaps set up differently, but just wanted to clarify that there would be no "easier" way (on my generation rig) to get AC power to the passenger side (in stock trim anyway).

Given how cheap GFI outlets are - and how flaky they seem - I'd be tempted to replace it even if it doesn't seem to make complete sense. Might fix it (inexplicably), or at least give a clue.
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kdarling
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by kdarling »

Right, I understand the difference between the various layouts. Anyway, thanks everyone for your encouraging words! They kept my spirits up :)

--- FIXED:

The end result is quite anticlimactic, as it turned out that there indeed is a second GFI in my rig. I had never noticed it because it was so dark and dirty.

Turns out that the 110v outlet that the refrigerator plugs into, is a GFI that also supplies the passenger side cabinet sockets and the patio sockets. Cleaned it off, reset it, and all is working again. Woo hoo!

---

Heck, I'm almost disappointed, since I was planning to pull the main distribution panel, and add volt and ammeters to it while I had it out ( grin).

Thanks again for the supporting replies! Kev
Last edited by kdarling on June 12th, 2016, 6:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Blue~Go
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by Blue~Go »

Great news! And I'm sure someone (or someones) else will also benefit from it in future.

Crushing that you lost out on a project though :lol:
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Re: Is there another 110v breaker I don't know about?

Post by kdarling »

Yes sir, now I have no pressing excuse to rip out the distribution panel (which in mine is under the fridge) and see what's behind it. Pity :lol:

Of course there's never a shortage of projects with these rigs! For example, on my list is to add door microswitch driven LED light strips inside the under sink and under cooktop cabinets. It's so darned dark in the recesses.

-- BUT THEN...

The next night a new set of electrical gremlins arose. As I was driving my daughter and her friends to their school dance, several Ford circuits began to come and go intermittently together. They'd stop working for a few minutes and then just as mysteriously start working again.

The failure group included all sorts of seemingly unrelated circuits: AC blower, turn signals, overdrive switch, and the backup lights (which I noticed because they power my backup camera). What the heck??!

As luck would have it, I just got in a used Ford wiring/vacuum diagram manual I bought off eBay. Extremely useful reference material to have btw. It showed that most of the failing circuits were on one fuse, but not the AC blower. Hmmm. Made no sense. But then, as I flipped back and forth through the various diagram pages, I suddenly noticed they are all powered from the same Hot-In-Run position output line of the ignition switch. Aha! Something in common.

Googling soon found multiple Ford forum hits saying that such randomly grouped symptoms on that line indicated that the ignition switch is bad. So yesterday I removed the plastic and metal plates under the steering column to get access. (Many people think the switch is up behind the ignition key, but it's not. There's a plastic rod that goes from the key lock, down the column, to behind the knee panel area, and that's where the actual electrical switch is.)

Since some ignition switch versions have a bolt holding the wiring connector in, I reached in to move the wires a bit to see better... and instantly the whole connector dropped off the switch!! Apparently someone had removed the wiring connector in the past and forgotten to put it fully back on! One quick snap to lock it correctly in place, and I was back in business.

I shudder to think that all this time, it could've vibrated itself totally off while driving and removed all ignition power, not just a few lines as it had. Wow. Always an adventure!
1994 Concourse dinette, Ford 7.5L (460 V8)
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