Battery separator under hood cycling

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Blue~Go
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Joined: July 31st, 2014, 1:01 am
Location: 1999 Concourse

Re: Battery separator under hood cycling

Post by Blue~Go »

I didn't make it back yesterday evening. But a fresh day, with fresh coffee, and here is what I have. I apologize in advance for the "wall of text," but I don't have the time right now to intersperse all the right photos, etc. to make it better. I will try to add some in a following post.


Roly,
Nice that you were there for your Ma, and for handling things with the estate. 98 is a very good run! Still, nothing replaces a mom, and I'm sorry to hear that.

Roly wrote:I just finished up the 200 watt roof panels, with Bogart industries controller and monitor and cheap batteries. Seems to work.
Good on you! 200 watts seems to be a nice size for a Chinook. I've been surprised at how well it has worked for me -- and I was skeptical due to the relentless "gift that keeps on taking" of the compressor refrigerator. I do have mine on the ground so I can angle them to advantage, but still pleasantly surprised at the life-changing difference over (essentially) no solar.
Roly wrote: I find the 1315 clacking regardless of alternator, solar, or P.D. charger or combinations thereof as a source. Maybe the starting battery could be replaced, but seems strong.
At this point, I would just remove the 1315 and replace it with something else. It's an older design (has a voltage drop vs. a more modern magnetic latching design), and was installed in a sub-optimal location. Before spending money or time on anything else, I'd replace it.
Roly wrote: I would like to know why you skipped the 7622. Could it have dropped in and still been overridden by the cab ceiling switch? It looks a bit bigger than the 1315.
I skipped it for reasons specific to me, not because I don't think it's a nice product (I do have one on a boat, their next smaller size). But, possibly peculiar to me, here's why:

1) I don't need to combine but once in a blue moon (solar keeps my batteries charged, and with the solar charger I'm able to deliver just what they want, vs. semi-random alternator power.

2) The 7622 is bi-directional. That means that during the weeks I'm camped, it would open and send solar charging to my start battery. I just don't really need that. I've never noticed any trouble starting after 14 days at a campsite, and then this fall I stored my Chinook for three months (was only supposed to be one month, but you know how things go). Fired right up when I got back. So I apparently don't have any parasitic loads on the start battery.

You can do some extra wiring to make the 7622 uni-directional (charging flows only from alternator to house and not the other way around), but since I didn't really need it in the first place...

3) The 7622 is a nice piece of equipment, but it's still more complicated and more likely to fail than a plain switch. So if I didn't need one....

So, I put in a manual Blue Sea switch (more on this below). I leave it in the "Off" position 99% of the time. Every once in a while I turn it "on" to combine if I want or need a bulk charge while driving. I will also be using it to run my "alternator + inverter occasional generator substitute." (I'll ignore that for now so this doesn't get any longer.)

I can also turn the switch to "On" to self-jump start if I want to. I haven't needed to yet, but a friend who did a similar setup has used it a number of times (parasitic drain on start battery he has not yet found).
Roly wrote:What switch plus indicator light? located on the fender?? Could one use a 1,2,both,off switch? (Perko?).
I used a Blue Sea Dual Circuit, part #6010200 (this is black in color, which I used because I like to reserve red for my main battery disconnect); #6010 is the same switch in red), but could have had the same result with the slightly larger Blue Sea 9004e (red).

The reason for these specific switches is they have another set of terminals (another large set on the dual circuit, and a small set on the 9004e). This second set of terminals allows the easy addition of a light. I put two lights on mine. Just little LEDs (made by K-Four) on #16 wire. The way mine works is this: When the switch is off, no lights are lit up. When the switch is on (combined), there is a green LED up by the center console that I can see while I'm driving. At the same time there is a red flashing LED in the coach (faces aft at the sink end of the couch so it won't bother me when driving). This way I can't possibly forget to de-combine (although if I didn't I don't think there would be a problem anyway since I don't go below 50% on my house bank; but with a smaller house bank or without monitoring devices it would be more critical). There's no way to "not see" the red flashing LED.

So basically it's just an On-Off switch. But by using either the Dual Circuit (not the Dual Circuit Plus), or the 9004e with the "field disconnect", you have the second set of terminals for the wiring to the lights. The Dual Circuit is smaller and tidier, but the second set of terminals is large (so you need to have ring terminals that will go from small wire to 3/8" posts). The 9004e is larger, but the second set of terminals is small (something like #8), and that size ring terminal in pink or blue is more common to have on hand (unless you are like me and keep a ridiculous inventory).

I did not mount it on the fender, on purpose. For a relay (7622), putting it in the heat of the engine bay (plus the dirt, water, etc.) is just not good practice, and it's easy to avoid that. For the switch, I wanted to be able to easily reach it (but Blue Sea does also make a switch that functions from afar, like the 7622, although that sort of negates the simplicity). Happily, for my setup, I could put the switch where I could reach it, and it was "right on the way" for the combiner wire. As you have probably figured out, the switch (or relay) can be anywhere along that combiner wire and it makes no difference.

I put my batteries under the couch for a couple of reasons. They are AGM's now, but I figured they'd likely be lithiums in the future.

1) Because I could, since I was not using flooded cells.

2) More even temperature for the batteries (not bad for AGM, critical for lithium).

3) I valued more outside storage more than more under-couch storage (and I really like the former battery area because it is isolated from the coach plus has air/drain so that's where I keep solvents, smelly rubber chocks, disposable butane canister, motor oil, etc.

4) Better weight distribution (closer to center of coach). Plus, there was only so much weight I was comfortable in hanging from a tabbed on fiberglass bin.

5) Shorter, easier wire runs.

So, once my batteries were under the couch, I could put my switch "along the way" and have it be inside, out of the weather (and reachable from driver's seat). But, even with the stock battery setup, I think you could do better with the 7622 location (than the stock 1315 location). I think I'd put it where that little fiberglass cover is over the fuses (if you lie under the rig just ahead of the battery box and look up and forward it's a white fiberglass cover). Or, if it's okay to put it in with flooded cells (I think it is but would have to double check) then you could put it inside the battery compartment just before the house bank.

I ran a completely new wire, since 4AWG wasn't fusable for the amps required for self-jump-starting, and I dislike unfused wires. The original wire went from the positive start battery terminal, up and over the air filter along the hood cowling area, then over to the fender to the 1315. From there it went back toward the cowling, down sort of along the steering column, along the driver's side frame rail, and over to the house battery box.

So what I did is eliminate that "side loop" over to the fender, and just do the same thing but without that detour. I also upgraded the negative cable from start battery to chassis, and the negative cable from house bank negative to chassis, so the whole loop would be fusable.

The hardest part of the whole job was getting that danged 1315 out. They must have had a special shoehorn at Trail Wagons! (It helps if you unfasten the coolant reservoir and put it over to the side a bit). Of course I didn't have to try to get anything back in to that location since I was not taking the Detour to the Fender.
Roly wrote:Did you make a schematic of what you did for the LVD ripout? (We used that term at Mare Island for the initial phase of a submarine overhaul.)
"Ripout" I like it! It was following by the "Victorious Lob" as I tossed the darned thing away in glee :mrgreen: (it was recalled anyway).

I didn't make a schematic per se, but did make drawings as I went along. I do these on paper as I don't have a slick way (or know of one, anyway) to do them digitally.

This was a couple of years ago, and some of it was already obvious as I re-did what I'll call the "core distribution" wiring (batteries, bus bars, fusing, combiner line, charger and line, load center and line, solar in line, etc.)
Roly wrote: Did it make the cab ceiling switches obsolete? I have done plenty of cabling, wiring and re-wiring, but electrical engineers always did the designing. (And redesigning when the electricians showed them how it won't work.)
Oh my. I think this should be child's play for you! :D

The main thing I had to "get over" was the idea that I should leave everything original, just because. I struggled with that for a while. Then I realized that not only was none of it magic, but that it was 20 years old and also designed for a use case I don't employ. I will say that of all the RV's I've seen, Chinook did a relatively tidy job, and documented it very well. But I wanted it more boat style, which is what I'm used to, so I brought it up to ABYC standards (or as close as made sense), and also brought it more in line with how I use the rig. Also, components (and understanding of battery charging, etc.) have come a long way in 20 years.

Okay, so let me think back 2 years. I'll start by looking at my cab overhead switches. Okay so here is what they are:

1) Driving lights - unaffected.

2) Vehicle boost start - this is now obsolete for me as I just turn my Blue Sea switch "On" and it directly controls the big cables. However, the 7622 does have a remote switch. But it doesn't match the Chinook overhead switch. However, IF I remember correctly, I had deduced that I could take the wires that go to their provided remote switch and use them on the stock overhead switch if I wanted to. Or you could use the 7622's remote switch and put it elsewhere.

3) Generator start - unaffected

4) The infamous "store" switch with the warning buzzer to turn on when charging etc. - I never did like this switch for various reasons. One is that it leaves some things on, and second, to my mind, a battery switch cuts off all loads from the batteries. If I'm storing my rig, I don't want things like the propane monitor sucking down the battery (first of all no-one would hear it; second, I would turn the propane off most likely).

The reason they need the little buzzer, warning light dealie is because of something I was going to eliminate anyway. I'll explain. Typically (likely it's this way on your boat), you have the house bank, and then some bus bars (which organize things and keep you from having big gobby pinwheels of ring terminals on your battery posts). Then you have feed wires from those bus bars to various things. Two main ones would be the feed to your DC distribution panel (fuse panel or breaker board). All of your house loads branch out from that. Nice and tidy.

Then you have other "feed" wires for charging. Such as one for your shore charger (which also handles generator input), one for solar input, and one for the combiner wire.

But Chinook (and I guess this was somewhat influenced by the design of the "brown box") used ONE wire for both shore charger charging and loads. So if you turn your "store" switch to store, then no charging can get through either. Hence the buzzer. On top of that little inconvenience, this "dual purpose" wire is small, and very very loooong. Hello voltage drop. The route is from the brown box to the outside wall where the kitchen and shower meet. Then up to the overhead and along the outside wall OVER the window to the overcab. Then down the pillar and eventually out to the batteries. It's an 8AWG wire. Gee, where is all my power leaking out?

What I did was re-do that. Once I got going it was easy (much easier than working with the stock setup).

So now I'll switch focus to removing the brown box, and what I did in its place.

1) Pull out brown box, throw gleefully out door.

2) Now let's asses what it does/did (of course I did this BEFORE taking it out in real life). Mind you this was two years ago, and I'm not a professional electrician, so of course double check anything I'm saying if you do this yourself.

a) It has the AC breakers and associated wires.
b) It has an automatic transfer switch which decides whether to let shore or generator through the 110 charger.
c) It has the 110 "shore" charger
d) Incoming generator wire
e) Incoming shore cord wire
f) It has the DC breakers
g) It has a bunch of connections that are prone to loosening in a moving vehicle (wires that screws clamp down on).
h) It has a wire going to chassis ground.
i) It has "the" wire going to the house bank from the charger (that same wire also brings power from the house bank back to the loads).

3) I assembled my main components.
a) Blue Sea 8467. This nice little panel does it all for the AC, but in a slightly different way than the stock setup. It has four main breakers, which matches the Chinook original circuits (outlets, Air-con, Microwave, charger). Then, instead of an automatic transfer switch, it simply has a toggled main source. You can't have both sources on at once (the toggle blocks the other one). I couldn't think of any reason for an automatic switch unless you had a big rig with automatic generator start (I don't see myself having that in the Chinook ever). So, it looks nice, is compact, has the right number of breakers, and no ATS to go bad. Plus it's attractively boaty :)

The one "thing" with doing this is that Chinook (bad on them, but just about all RV's do it) used solid Romex wire instead of stranded. Solid is prone to vibration loosening, which can lead to scary problems. Also, you can't crimp a ring terminal onto solid wire. Now in my buddy's rig (we did the same overhaul to his other-brand rig), we were able to actually replace all the AC wires save one with stranded wire (Ancor 10/3 12/3 or 14/3 as appropriate) right back to the source. Not that it was a pleasant job, but satisfying. On the Chinook it would be tricker due to the wires that go behind the shower. So I compromised (yes, it does happen). The charger wire of course was easily replaced with new stranded wire, but the other wires I ran into a large junction box where I mated them to stranded counterparts with wire nuts (I think I just got kicked out of the boating community) that are okay for solid to stranded connections. At least they are in a box and much less prone to vibration problems than solid wire clamped under an immobile screw as the originals were. Then I ran the new stranded wires to their destinations with ring terminals on the ends (FTZ with built in adhesive heat shrink).

b) ATS function now handled directly on AC panel as mentioned above.

c) Shore (generator) charger: I went with a ProMariner ProNauticP Series 60 Amp Battery Charger (same as Sterling Pro Charge Ultra). In retrospect, with the little I use the shore charger, I could have gone with a smaller one. But if you do use it with the generator, it's nice to have the higher amperage to get through bulk charging faster. I like this charger because it is completely customizable, temperature compensated, has good connection points, has temperature compensation, etc. Plus it's the one that Maine Sail uses to illustrate his "how to install a charger" photo article so how convenient :) It also has an optional remote panel if desired.

So now the charger supply wire is separate from the load wire, and I no longer need the little reminder buzzer to "even though you are storing you are charging so don't have the switch in store position." I can also run the appropriate sized wires for each function, and fuse accordingly.

Side note is that I have a regular Blue Sea On/Off battery switch close to the batteries, so no longer need the "store" switch. As in boats, each person can decide whether to turn off all loads, leave some on, whether to turn off all loads and charging sources, loads but not charging sources, loads and some charging sources, etc. (you just wire it up to your preference). I left the store switch in place, so the panel looks clean, but just it's no longer necessary or operational.

d) Incoming generator wire
I moved this from the start battery (terribly long, underspecced wire at 6 AWG and approximately two miles long. Chinook did move the wire to the house bank in later years. I just re-used the existing 6AWG (which is now HALF as long), but if one were to be doing cold weather starts a heavier gauge wire would be better (even with the shorter run to the house bank).

I simply intercepted the wire just below where my new bus bars are, ran it up through the floor and to the bus bar (with appropriate fuse - used same 80 amp size as they had under the hood).

e) Incoming shore cord wire. This was already stranded, so it can simply be attached to the designated spot on the back of the new Blue Sea 8467 panel. Or, of one wants to eliminate the "mouse hole" it can be changed to an inlet style, like on a boat (cord can be detached at side of rig then). I like the Smart Plug if so. Then the wire from the back of the inlet would go to the 8467 instead of the black shore cord end itself.

f) DC Breakers. I actually went with a fuse block for this. A breaker panel that matched the AC panel would be slick, but they are MUCH more expensive and I don't interface with it so often that I can't pull a fuse from time to time. I have never blown a fuse, so no real need for quick resets. I do like the panels though! I used a Blue Sea 5026 (and gained a few positions).

Although the original Chinook wiring uses chassis grounds I still got the one with the built in negative bus because any new circuits I add have full negative wires, and I may replace some of the chassis grounds with wires as I go.

g) These are gone (because they were on the brown box).

h) Chassis ground wires for loads now terminate on Blue Sea 5026, vs. brown box.

i) These are now separate wires, both coming off house bank bus bars. Charger has its own wire, loads (BS 5026) have their own wire. All MUCH shorter and thicker than original, so no voltage drop concerns.

In practice what this looks like (at least in my mock up version - you knew I had to have a mock up version, right? :D) is a wooden battery box under the couch. On the outside of the box is my "power center." This consists of the positive main battery wire (2/0) coming around the corner (to the outside of the box) to a Class T Fuse first thing. The combiner wire (1/0) comes off the downstream side of the Class T fuse (since it has its own switch, but it's fused here). Then the main battery switch. After that are the positive and negative busses (wire is 2/0 up to this point). (I have my charging sources switched in this iteration, but it doesn't have to be this way.) Attached to the positive bus are the charger wire (1/0), the feed wire to the Blue Sea 5026 (loads) (6AWG), the solar wire coming in from the controller (2 AWG), and the generator start wire (6 AWG). The wire gauges might change in another setup depending on draws/loads/length of run. The Class T fuse protects the large main wires. Any time you go down to a wire size below that which would be protected by the size fuse you run in the Class T fuse holder (or other main fuse holder), then the wire needs to be re-fused at the point at which it goes down in size (typically at the bus bar).

There are a couple of other small things, but you are probably already totally bogged down (I hope not, but…).

In real life this was all pretty easy to accomplish, because the new things are in wide open spaces (mostly under the couch) vs. being long skinny things fished the long way through cupboards, walls, and etc. I think removing the 1315 from the fender was the hardest part. Oh and getting the brown box out because Chinook clamped the slack down so I had just a slit to reach in to get it released (but then it was easy).

The one thing I did not mount under the couch was the shore charger. Since I had a wasted space area under the sink counter (above the box that holds the shore power cord is a space that is unused in the "L" shaped Concourse kitchen), I mounted the charger there. This did require larger wire to keep the voltage drop down, so there could be an equal case for just putting it under the couch. I also mounted my "solid AC wire to stranded AC wire junction box" on top of that shore power box.

The area where the brown box used to be is now open, and what a handy space in a great, accessible place! Right now it's just a space in which I keep a few gallon jugs of drinking water, and my wastebasket sits in front of it (tucked in better without the protruding box). But ultimately I would like to have a tall/deep drawer there.

*****

Oh right, the LVD. Well, it's gone, and let me try to remember all the functions it did, and how I handled them…. Looking at the DC sketch in the Chinook manual to refresh my memory.

1) Main positive (red) wire in and out. Okay, well without the LVD you don't need those. This was simply an interruption in that long, LONG skinny 8AWG wire that ran from the brown box to the house bank. The side from the battery bank comes in through the floor into the space behind the pillar where the LVD is mounted. The side to the brown box went up the pillar, over the cabinets, and through the woods to the brown box.

Then the small wires:

2) White wire to chassis ground. Other chassis grounds eliminate the need for this one.

3) Red wire to store switch/light dealie. No longer needed with main battery switch right next to batteries (you can use a Blue Sea remote switch if you want to switch it from a little switch like this instead of using a regular red On/Off manual switch).

4) Blue wire to store switch/light dealie - same as above.

5) Grey wire to buzzer of above dealie - same as above. Buzzer function no longer needed as the load and charging wires are no longer one and the same.

6) Green wire to fuse and then on to store switch/light dealie. No longer needed.

7) Red wire to house bank, associated with store switch/light dealie. No longer needed.

8) Other wire that doesn't come right off the LVD, but goes from the store switch over to the "self jump start" switch and from there on to the 1315 to allow you to self jump start (although the 4AWG unfused wire is a bit weak for this, IMO). With either the 7622 (has its own wires to remote switch), or a manual switch these are not needed. You might make use of them for pulling wires (or re-use parts of them) if you'd want to run the 7622 remote switch wires to the Chinook original switch.

So basically, 99% of the LVD was used for the store switch/light/buzzer. If you don't need that, then they are not needed. As far as the LVD function, well, I'd say that was not that useful. I'd compare it to not having a fuel gauge, but instead having your vehicle set up so that if you get down to 3 oz. of fuel the engine shuts off. How handy! Except it is actually slightly worse as running the batteries down to the LVD cutoff level has already damaged them, whereas in the engine example you are only stranded on the side of the road, but haven't damaged the engine.

With a battery monitor and a basic understanding of how batteries work, you have a fuel gauge instead. More useful!

Self jump start can be handled either with a manual switch or with the 7622 (by using its own remote switch or possibly wiring to the original Chinook switch just to use it as a matching switch).

My assessment is that first of all, this is 20 year old tech. Second of all, this was built to be "foolproof." That, ironically, made it more complicated. That also made it so you happily used battery power until suddenly the lights went out (and your batteries were damaged). That's all fine if it suits a person and their use case. I wanted to clean it up, make it simpler, make it safer, and keep my batteries happy -- plus know where I stood at all times. Now obviously Chinooks are not burning down right and left, so I'm not saying the original setup was hazardous. But in 2017 it can be made much better and simpler, and for less money than it would have cost then (and some things were just not available) --- and the info is available to DIY-ers, thanks to the Internet. Of course one shouldn't tackle it if not comfortable with it, and don't take my opinion as gospel. I'm just one amateur sharing what I did.
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Roly
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Location: Puget Sound WA

Re: Battery separator under hood cycling

Post by Roly »

Wow, Blue, that is a very good encapsulation of Chinook Wiring Upgrade!

It covers lots of what you have already posted over the months, but woven snugly together, with more detail. I'll have to re-read it some, but will gradually proceed with shorter fatter wire runs, similar isolation scheme, more worthy house batteries, etc.

I'll keep the PD box with which I replaced the brown one. I will keep the Norcold for now as I have overhauled it, and it will cool with propane. I need to keep the overhauled furnace and newly replaced water heater, to warm Mrs. Roly, but may add a ventless propane heater, too. Similarly I will keep the Onan to run the retained A/C when not plugged in. (Used it driving down the left coast last time after the cab A/C quit and it was HOT. The microwave can go for sure as we don't use them on food we intend to eat.

My '98 is becoming much more versatile as time progresses. Thanks for the help.

Fair Winds, Roly
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vacuumbed
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Battery separator under hood cycling

Post by vacuumbed »

On my 2005 Concourse, I have what looks like the 1315. It often clicks a lot.

I don't really care for this setup, I liked a simple setup that was in a 1990 Coachmen B van I once owned. It had a relay, connected to key on power to charge the battery when the engine was running. It was simple and it worked great. I'm half tempted to do this to my 2005 Concourse.
2005 Concourse E350 Ford V10.
1990 Concourse E350 Ford. 7.3 IDI Diesel.
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