Adding one or more batteries

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Scott
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Re: Adding one or more batteries

Post by Scott »

A Rooney wrote:Scott,what you are managing to maneuver into those compartments is unreal,when you got to the 10x10 portable for some reason it reminded me of that old Marx bros movie where after pulling a plethora of items out of his coat pocket Harpo pulls out a full candelabra with the candles lit! ROONEY
:lol: :lol:

There's a ton of room in that rear compartment! Due to the space up above (between the shower and the coach wall) it's perfect for long/narrow objects like a beach umbrella, or stacking light/bulky things like life jackets and towels. Sorry, way off topic...
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Big Beast
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Re: Adding one or more batteries

Post by Big Beast »

Great info here Blue! I am currently looking to upgrade. as it is now almost 2022, what would be the latest and greatest components to use? Big ask, I know!
Blue~Go wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:28 am {Edited to add: I see Rooney posted while I was typing. In my experience he's a good analyzer, so I'm glad he chimed in (also, I would never have gotten the cab pillars out/in if it were not for him :D).]

Okay, let's dive in :) But let me preface this by saying I'm not an electrician. I have learned by being around boatyards, reading the ABYC standards (cookbook approach to best practices on boats), talking with people who are trained, reading articles online, and doing (on my own RV/boat). As always, electricity can be dangerous, keep in mind your comfort level, etc. etc.

I "get" coastal Texas. I lived in a similar climate for around five years. Hot and Muugggyyyy!!!! (and damp and chilly in the winter, yay). So yeah, I don't think you're going to be removing your air-conditioner (I did, but my situation is completely different).

Your answers make all the difference, so we can start barking up the right tree.
Kirah wrote: To answer your questions:

How do I use it?
...main use case - go somewhere, hook up, and use it as shelter to cool down between hikes.

--But I also get to do longer trips every couple of years, when I can end up in state parks, National Forests, or overflow parking. And every so often I end up just camping in someone's driveway for a few days.

--When traveling, it's often my only vehicle, so it spends much of the day on the highway, on washboard, bumping through a wildlife refuge, or just parked in a lot or a pull-off. On long highway days, I'll often pull into a rest area mid-afternoon, crank up the generator to run the A/C, and take a good nap in a real bed - man I love this thing!

--At home, I have a rented garage where I can plug it in to keep batteries charged (I plug in the house batteries and put a tender on the engine battery). It gets really hot in there, though, in the middle of the summer, but not as hot as sitting in the sun.
Okay, so right away, my thought is you need a GOOD shore charger, and definitely one with remote temperature compensation. You're plugged in probably 95% of the time (including when you're not using it in the calculation), and you live in a hot climate. Batteries hate heat (sorry to say). BTW, the generator also passes its power through the shore charger so you kind of get double-duty. .

Then, you need to make sure the charge gets to the batteries, so I'd plan on re-wiring at least the run from the charger to the batteries (right now it's a looooooong, skinny wire, and that's not good. First of all it costs you some power, but more importantly it causes voltage drop. So you buy a good charger, set it up just so (to the tenth of a volt, tenths are important), and then, whammo, lose a bunch of tenths of volts on the way to the charger through the skinny wire.

Conveniently, this is when you could organize things (wiring-wise), fuse correctly, etc.

Now let's move on down the line, because none of the rest of it is quite as cut-and-dried as far as what you may want. But I can easily/confidently say you need a good shore charger, and the wiring to let it do what it will be trying to do (charge properly).
Kirah wrote:What's my budget and goal?

My goal is to have something reliable that I won't have to fuss with, and that will tolerate some neglect - high temps, low temps, multi-month stretches with no use at all. It needs to be able to run an efficient DC fridge, lights, water pump, a couple of small fans, and occasionally the furnace.
Well..... yeah, all of that together is a challenge but let's run through some ideas:

1) Reliable
If you wire things properly and choose good components, they are not likely to go out (and if they do, well, it's more of a fluke).

2) Tolerate neglect. That one is tougher. Mainly because of the heat. No batteries really like heat. Some merely hate it, and others won't tolerate it at all. Lithium.... forget it. AGM.... they aren't gonna love heat, but on the other hand you'll be charging them/maintenance charging them as you'll be storing plugged in, which is a plus. AGM self-discharge less quickly, which can be nice in storage, but then you're plugged in, so maybe not as important. Good old flooded aren't going to love heat either, but they are cheaper to buy and to replace. OTOH, flooded cells rule out an under-the-couch install, without some complicated venting scheme. So I'd say that's up for consideration with no obvious best choice (but not lithium - so AGM or flooded cells).

Oh, also, no batteries like to just sit partially charged, although AGM dislike it the most. But again, you're plugged in, so no matter.

OTOH, cold is just peachy for storing batteries, so at least you'll have "winter."

So part of me wants to say to go for flooded cell batteries, just cause the heat's going to be hard on them and they are cheaper when you inevitably have to replace. The other (smaller) part says AGM because they can be put under the couch, which makes it convenient to wire and place components (but that's only a one-time thing) but which will also at least mean they are out of the heat when you are using them (because air-conditioning).

I love solar, and for me it's the power source I use 99% of the time; but I'm not sure it's a top priority for your use case, in case something has to go by the wayside. Here's why I say that:

1) Storage is plugged in and under a roof (no sun).
2) Solar won't run air-conditioner, so you'll be running generator for that anyway when on the road.
3) Plugged in.... it's not used (unless you get into some bad power situations at campgrounds, which just happened to a friend of mine last month) (but then you might just run generator, as most of the other campers did).
3) Okay, maybe for those times you are in a forest service campground (in fact, yes please! I almost can't go to rustic campgrounds anymore because they are just one big generator-noise-fest).

So maybe if it makes the budget cut, a 100- or 200-watt solar system with ground deployable panels (maybe if you can get to sky within around 30' this could be a backup if your storage power goes out too).

Alternator charging is fairly obvious here, so I would recommend upgrading the connecting wire (for less voltage drop and also because it cannot be fused at the size it is - so not the safest). Also remove the ancient (and probably recalled) Sure Power combiner and replace (I like the Blue Sea 7622, and the fenderwell isn't the best location, but it can be anywhere along that wire). BTW, the 7622 is bi-directional so then your shore charger should send some charge to the start battery when you are stored.

You could also put on your radar a "DC to DC charger." This takes the relatively "stupid" alternator power and makes it "smart" like your shore charger does. On the other hand it sounds like your long travel days aren't that often, and the alternator will still do the job. So I'd put that at a lower priority, but just know it's out there (but the wiring re-do between the start and house banks is high priority).

Now to go back to the shore charger, what you have now is the "brown box." It's probably under the sink counter somewhere with a visible door. That is a giant combo box (easy peasy for them to put in when building) and includes a bunch of things.

1) Shore charger module (crappy one).
2) Automatic transfer switch (chooses either generator or shore as a source).
3) AC breakers
4) DC fuses.

It also has the mysterious "converter" which maybe somehow "converts" some of the shore power to DC when you are plugged in. Personally, I put a low priority on this function once you have a good shore charger, because with that when you are plugged in your DC comes from your batteries, but the shore charger is always either charging or maintaining, so it kind of doesn't, if that makes sense.

You can get relatively inexpensive charger modules that are better that fit into the brown box, but... to my mind they are still not great, especially for your situation (heat). They don't have temperature compensation, and although there is a specific set of voltages that each battery bank "wants," that is ONLY true at 77ºF. At all other temperatures, that requirement changes (less voltage when hotter; more when colder). A better stand-alone charger will have a small wire with a ring terminal on it, and you simply place that on a battery terminal. Now the charger will monitor the temperature of your batteries, and adjust the voltages accordingly (using a set amount of addition or subtraction that you can customize). Since your shore charger is going to be the heart of your system, I'd plan on a stand alone. I have the Sterling 60 amp, and conveniently one of my fellow sailors has written a good article on this charger and installing it, but there are other good ones too. But for now I'll stop burying you with detail :D

But back to the brown box. If it were me, no question, that thing would be coming out (in fact mine is gone), and I'd go more marine style in my components. Here's what I have, just for example, to cover the same bases as the Brown Box:

1) Shore charging
Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60 amp charger (fully adjustable and with temperature compensation) (they also make it under another name, which I forget at the moment, and which may be the one I have. I think it's ProMariner, IIRC).

2 and 3) AC breakers, plus transferring (gen to shore or vice-versa)
Blue Sea 8467 breaker panel

4) DC fuse panel
Blue Sea 5029 12-position fuse block, but you could also consider a pair of 5046's. There are also nice breaker panels that kind of match the DC one above, but they are much more expensive, and I don't find that I blow things, nor do I need to use them as switches (which you can do with the panel). But they are very nice (put one in for a buddy).

In the setup above, there is no automatic transfer switch. I didn't feel there was really any need for one, since I don't have an auto-start generator, and they are somewhat prone to failure (not hugely, but if you don't have one, then not at all). The 8467 panel has a built in toggle. Because of how the toggle works, you can only be on shore or gen, but not both. But you do have to toggle it whenever you switch from one to the other. Since it's a nice looking panel, I don't mind having it visible, and also there are lights on it that are nice to check when you hook up (power, polarity, etc.). Also makes it easy to switch on/off when plugging in (a good idea).

You can just add a new charger (off to one side), and keep the rest of the brown box, but it's not as tidy (electrically), and the transfer switch is a slight weak point (but you can always carry a spare).

I always say to calmly double time or money estimates, but let's run through some really rough ideas of numbers. I'll round up :mrgreen:

1) Good shore charger (size yet to be determined, there are various ideas on choosing size): $500
2) Blue Sea 7622 combiner $200
3) Blue Sea DC fuse block $50
4) Blue Sea 8467 AC panel $300

5) Tools, lugs, fuses, cabling/wire, bus bars, switches, cushion clamps, etc. $1000+ (the sky's the limit) (but you get to keep the tools :D). This is what you'll be using to re-wire the big bits, organize power, fuse it, etc.

6) Batteries $300-$1200, depending on how you go (flooded cheaper; AGM more expensive).

7) Battery monitor (gas gauge for your batteries - important IMO) $250

8) Solar $1000 (roughly) (small system) (wire and lugs already included in #5 though :D)

Off the top of my head, I would have said $4000 for the basics, so that doesn't look too far off (that was before I calmly doubled it... mostly kidding :lol: . If it were me, and I wanted to stage it, I'd leave off the solar for now. You'll already have the wire, tools, lugs, etc. so to add it later won't be a big issue. I know, since when do I say leave off the solar?!? But it's all about use case. I see you making best use of a rock-solid basic electrical and shore/gen charging system, with alternator available as well.

Not sure if you meant to include the fridge in this, but depending on the size/brand, I'd say $1000 - $1500. There are other ways (house type fridge with inverter), but you said you like the idea of the DC compressor unit (they will also automatically switch over to AC when available). And I can't argue with that, as that's what I have and like :) But there are alternatives (basically they would be to save initial $$).

That brings us to something not mentioned yet, which is an inverter. I'd put it down on the list, since you are typically plugged in, running generator, or driving. Inverters make AC power from your batteries. Of course you already have AC power if you are either plugged in or running the genny, and if you are driving (and if you have a DC refrigerator) then there is little need to add an inverter, I don't think. But I just wanted to mention it, since they often come up in these sorts of conversations.

I carry a really small (less than 100 watt) inverter that plugs into a cigarette outlet, which I can use to charge small things when I'm driving (or when not driving, but I just have a habit of doing it when I'm driving). These would be things like toothbrush battery, drill batteries, etc. Most of my life is on DC, but you don't really have that need (which is convenient). This is why knowing how you use your rig is so key, and you do so that's great. You can focus on what you can really use, and add other things later if/when you want to.

Sounds like you are up for diving in and learning, which I think is great. When I started out (pre-Chinook), I was fairly confused, and I didn't spring for the $ tools, but rather had other people make certain decisions for me, and tried to have the cable making hired out. That didn't end up working well for me (decisions either weren't what I wanted, or I had a vague uneasy feeling because I didn't exactly know how it all worked) (and cables would not be the right length, something would change, lugs wouldn't face the right direction, etc. Even when I did buy the big crimper (for the big cables), I thought "Oh, I'll do this job then re-sell it on eBay." Ha! I've used that thing over and over again during the three or so years I've owned it, and loaned it to several friends. Best money I spent.

BTW, although you can solder, it's no longer considered necessary or even best practice. A good (good!) crimp is preferable, because they are much less troubled by vibration. ABYC says you can solder, but you have to take more care about supporting the joint at X distance, etc. Of course a crappy crimp is just crappy, but then so is a crappy solder joint. Good news is, good crimps are easy with the right tools. If you're not an old-time solderer, at this point, I'd go with good crimps.

Also, there are lots of ways to make it a bit cheaper here and there, depending on your time/money balance, your bent, etc.

Here are some of the places I source things. Being in Texas you can pretty much go to either coast conveniently.

http://www.fisheriessupply (FTZ lugs, Blue Sea, charger, pretty much anything).
http://www.pkys.com (Blue Sea and other components)(good prices, will discuss things)
http://www.amazon.com (Blue Sea, Ancor cabling, charger - great prices usually, with some ridiculous outliers)
http://www.geniunedealz.com (FTZ lugs, sometimes wire)

http://www.suremarineservice.com (refrigerators - great sizing tool too, furnaces, etc.)
http://www.truckfridge.com (re-branded Vitrifrigo and other DC fridges, but only smaller sizes).


And a few articles you might find helpful, from a knowledgeable, professional, fellow sailor (he goes by ABYC standards, which is good):

Main page where you can find all articles (each is posted as a "gallery"):
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects

Shore charger:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/inst ... ry_charger

Terminating and labeling wires (I have the big FTZ crimper and the "cheap but good" small wire crimper, plus the Ideal Stripmaster for up to 10AWG. The battery one applies to all larger cables (run to charger, combiner wire, battery jumpers, etc.):
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_labeling

Fusing (breakers, fuses, etc.):
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_fusing
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/batt ... wn_averted

Battery monitoring (I have both a Victron and a Smart Gauge, but if I had to choose one... Smart Gauge (when non-lithium batts). Good news is, they have come down in price quite a bit. They were close to $400 when I got mine some years ago, now they are closer to $250.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/batt ... _of_charge
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/smart_gauge
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_monitor

I'm sure I've missed things, and there is more than one good way to do the electrical. I tried to write down a combination of my opinions and some generally decent ideas. There are quite a few knowledgeable folks here, so I'm sure you'll get some alternative ideas.

BG

PS: One thing I didn't mention, but which you might find handy if you are on shore power often, is changing the shore power cord so that it plugs into an inlet on the Chinook, vs. being hard wired and coming out of a door. Reasons I prefer the inlet are that there is no "mouse hole" to worry about, plus I can unplug and drive away without cleaning and stowing the WHOLE cord in the Chinook compartment. If you do that, you might consider going straight to a Smart Plug vs. a Marinco style inlet. The inlet connection is standard fare on boats (and on later Chinooks). And yep, there's an article :D

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/inst ... smart_plug

PPS: As you'll find out, voltage drop is the enemy when you are running at 12 volts. So when it comes down to actually ordering supplies and doing, calculating voltage drop (and fusing) is key. But that's later.

PPPS: Still awake? Brain on fire? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
chin_k
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Re: Adding one or more batteries

Post by chin_k »

I have not heard any big break thru in past few years, so Blue's comment should still applies. I am looking forward to the fusion generator big enough to fit in the genset bay, and I will never have to buy gas or propane again! ;)
2000 Concourse dinette, on 1999 6.8L Ford E350 Triton V-10 Chassis
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