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 Post subject: Genset Starter wire..
PostPosted: November 30th, 2017, 6:51 pm 
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I have read some of the posts on this subject and looked at the wiring diagrams, 9.4, 2000 Concourse which I have.
Installing new batteries and the 702. I thought I'd eliminate the genset starter wire as I'm going to remove it.
I have 3 large wires from the positive terminals and 1 ground wire. Looking at the 9.4 drawing it shows the genset feeding of the "brown box". The drawing shows 3 feeds of the positive, one only 7.5 amp feed to a auto re-setter? I see the Solar small wire.The drawing even shows a ground home run from the genset to the house batteries,I only have one ground connected.
My wires aren't marked so I'm trying to figure where they go.

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PostPosted: December 1st, 2017, 10:12 am 
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Humm...
I had the house battery bank disconnected last night and went out to work on it more this morning and I heard the starter battery separator clicking, must have been doing that all night. I hooked back up the house batteries and it stopped...Is that normal?
Hope I didn't damage anything....
Thanks for everyone's help with a new Chinook owner!!
Now back to figure out the genset starter feed and the 3 big wires to the house batteries....

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PostPosted: December 1st, 2017, 10:31 am 
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Location: 1999 Concourse
I'm not sure I understand your question - maybe you could say it another way?

But just to sort of recap the whole setup. The generator has both AC and DC wiring associated with it.

1) The generator's engine is started by DC power from one of your batteries. On my '99 Chinook took that power from the Ford start battery. Later years moved it to the house battery. There is likely an 80 amp thermal/re-set type breaker close to the chosen battery on the starter line. On my year it was a 6 gauge red cable (negative goes via chassis ground).

2) The generator puts out 110 volt power. So the electrical lines coming from the generator to the brown box are flat, white, "Romex" type household AC wire (they didn't use stranded wire). These wires go behind the closet, up over the rear door, around behind the shower, and to an AC breaker on the brown box.

3) You may also have a remote hour meter, and/or one or two remote start buttons. My '99 came with a remote starter/ hour meter in the closet wall (above closet door). This is fed by small DC wires. More small DC wires to go another remote starter switch in the cab overhead by the driver's right shoulder.

Note on #2: Since the brown box has a whole bunch of functions, including being the DC charger, there are no separate large cables running around for that function, like there would be if you had a separate charger.

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PostPosted: December 1st, 2017, 1:59 pm 
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Sorry if I'm rambling some, my questions relate to the 12v system
In looking at the drawing 9.4 it appears the genset stater wire comes from the brown box, not a direct run to the house batteries.
I disconnected one at a time and the one unconnected that disabled genset starter also turn off the 12v lights in the coach. So I think the 3 large wires on the positive house batteries are 1. to the Ford starter isolater, 2.the LVD 3. the brown box.?? Drawing 9.4 doesn't show that?
So if I remove the genset I'll have to disconnect the starter wire from the brown box or just terminate it in the old genset space.

My other question was regarding the Ford battery isolater clicking when the house batteries are disconnected. Is that normal?

I'm finishing running the 702 cable to monitor and got a good look at the LVD behind the seat the wire I see feeding it was a #8 which is one of the three connected to the + on the batteries, the other two look to be #4s

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PostPosted: December 1st, 2017, 6:53 pm 
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So i recently had (and still have) an issue with my generator and starter wire. Its a long and not exactly exciting story but the gist of it is that I have a short circuit. I'm not sure if its the separator but a large black box in the passenger side cab clicked every minute or so, and it drained the starting battery. I knew by process of elimination the starter wire was causing issues. But the 'ah ha' moment was when we hooked up the multimeter and realized that there was a short. Not something I thought about, so if you hear clicking, something to check!


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PostPosted: December 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am 
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Okay, so for starters (heh), here is Fig. 9.4 so we can all look at it. I took this from the 2000 manual (because in the 1998 manual it's figure 4.x), but now I can't remember what year you have (could you put it in your profile or a signature? That's really helpful). This is the first year that shows the generator being started from teh house battery, BTW. Click these to enlarge them.

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autox wrote:
Sorry if I'm rambling some, my questions relate to the 12v system
In looking at the drawing 9.4 it appears the genset stater wire comes from the brown box, not a direct run to the house batteries.


The wire you see (that goes up the right side of the diagram) going from the genset to the brown box, well, I see where it could be confusing. Reason is Fig 9.4 is purportedly the DC system, but that wire is an AC wire. The genset outputs AC current.

The wire that supplies (DC) starting juice for the generator is going across the bottom of the photo to the house bank. Another confusion here is that they accidentally drew it going to the negative terminal, but it actually of course goes to the positive terminal (the negatives are all chassis grounds).

If you have a look at the equivalent drawing from the 1998 manual, I think it might be more clear (even though you'll have to ignore that the starting wire goes to the Ford start bank). You can also kind of guess how they made the mistake of drawing the new one to the house bank negative terminal, because you can see how the start wire goes across the bottom of the diagram, then they probably just did a bit of white-out and redrawing and.... ooops, took gen start to negative terminal. They also apparently forgot to draw in the 80 amp breaker on the new 2000 drawing.

Attachment:
Fig. 4.1, 1998 manual.png
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I really should digitize my 1999 manual! But the gen part of the wiring on mine is the same as this 1998 drawing.

For another view, have a look at Fig. 9.6 from the 2000 manual, which is the AC electrical system. I put a red arrow by the AC wire that carries power from the generator to the brown box (via the ATS, or Automatic Transfer Switch, which is on the backside of the brown box). The genset outputs AC power.

Attachment:
Fig 9.6, 2000 manual.png
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autox wrote:
So I think the 3 large wires on the positive house batteries are 1. to the Ford starter isolater, 2.the LVD 3. the brown box.?? Drawing 9.4 doesn't show that?


I believe on your rig the three large wires on the house bank positive should be as follows:

1) to the isolater, thence the Ford start battery
2) to the brown box (which is also the wire "from" the brown box - it's a dual function hence the warning buzzer up by the cab).
3) to the generator starter (beginning in 2000 model year).

autox wrote:
So if I remove the genset I'll have to disconnect the starter wire from the brown box or just terminate it in the old genset space.


I should think you'd remove (or appropriately terminate, or appropriately re-purpose) the following:

1) 6AWG red wire that comes from the house bank and runs the genset starter
2) 10 AWG white flat Romex type wire that runs from the genset to the ATS (on the backside of the brown box).
3) Any small DC wires that run to either the main switch you press to start the generator, the main switch plus hourmeter, and auxilliary switch by driver's shoulder, if you have one.

Note that any wires that "go around the horn," (i.e. behind the shower and over to the passenger side) can be like irreplaceable gold (because just try to run a new one -- that would be a pain). So, for example, you could leave the 10 AWG AC wire (labeled) for someone later on, or you could make a dedicated circuit for an electric space heater, or whatever. Same with the DC wire to the cab. The starter wire would make a better feed for any compressor refrigerator than the 8AWG one that's in place for the absorption refrigerator that came stock, etc.

autox wrote:
My other question was regarding the Ford battery isolater clicking when the house batteries are disconnected. Is that normal?


I haven't been using one in awhile and I can't quite articulate the specifics anymore, but there are times that they click (essentially that means they are in a cycle of trying to do something, not trying, trying, not trying). I think you put in the Blue Sea 7622, right? They do have an article on what can cause this. I have a hunch:

The relay closes thus providing power to the "other" bank whenever there is enough voltage to share (i.e. over 13.2 or thereabouts). So normally "click" and you are on your way, both banks sharing the charge. BUT, there is a low voltage cutoff. In other words, if the one bank has power to share, but when the relay closes it finds the second bank is below a certain voltage (9 or 10, IIRC), then it says "Oh no, we're not going to connect to this black hole of power sucking" and it clicks back open so as not to share. But then the relay sees that "Oh, we have power to share!" and it closes again, then sees the black hole again, etc. If there is no battery, that probably registers as the black hole. This shouldn't normally happen because voltage below 9-10 should not be there in any normal circumstance.

You could double check on Blue Sea's website to make sure I'm remembering correctly.

autox wrote:
I'm finishing running the 702 cable to monitor and got a good look at the LVD behind the seat the wire I see feeding it was a #8 which is one of the three connected to the + on the batteries, the other two look to be #4s


This is how things were on mine (but double check yours of course) as far as wires on the house bank positive:

Mine had an 8AWG (red) from the house positive to the bottom of the LVD, via the little breakers in the white fiberglass hutch under by the frame. Maybe you have a 4AWG for this?

Then the "same" 8AWG (red) came out the top of the LVD. That's the dual purpose wire, that both carries charge from the brown box (charger) to the house bank, AND carries load power from the house bank to the loads at the brown box. It's a two way street (not the best arrangement, IMO, but the brown box makes you set it up this way. Chinook countered with the warning buzzer).

Then a 4AWG went to the the Ford start bank, via the Surepower isolator on the driver's side fenderwell.

Then there was the 6AWG (red) for the gen start, but in my case that was on the start bank but for you it would be on the house bank.

And a ..... 12AWG IIRC that came from the solar controller with a 7.5a inline glass fuse.

I'll post a couple of photos of the LVD in my next reply. One of them shows the Surepower diagram on the side.

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Last edited by Blue~Go on December 2nd, 2017, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: December 2nd, 2017, 10:14 am 
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LVD pics, including Surepower diagram on one side of the LVD:

Oh, btw, both large red wires from the LVD (top and bottom, 8AWG on mine) look like they go down, because they both went under the pillar. But one actually went up (up the pillar, over the long window, down the shower wall, and EVENTUALLY to the brown box. And the other went down through a hole in the floor and to the house bank.

The rest of the LVD wires (the small ones) are essentially a roundhouse for a few auxilliary functions, most of them happening up at the over-driver's-shoulder switch panel in the cab. (Shown on Chinook diagrams.)

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PostPosted: December 2nd, 2017, 5:50 pm 
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BG Your great thanks again,I owe you a bottle of wine from our vineyards....

What's still puzzling me is when I disconnected the wire,#2or4 size, that disabled the genset starter the 12v system in the coach went off also and the #8 still was connected?? The drawings are confusing...

Now here is the update on the Ford battery isolator clicking when the house batteries are disconnected..FYI I put a disconnect switch on the negative feed after the 702 shunt..
So again today I tuned off the house batteries and the Ford isolator starting clicking again,I disconnected the negative from the Ford battery and it stopped BUT then the overhead switch for the house starting blinking,both red and green lights and chiming??? Humm all batteries are disconnected...Oh it must be the Solar, so I took the fuse out of the solar control panel and all stopped, hooked back up the Ford battery, no more isolator clicking. BTW the drawing shows a negative wire from the Solar direct to the house battery, not on mine.
So I think the small feed of power from the solar seems to trigger other issues... Or I'm getting a back feed from the still connected positives on the house batteries through the solar to ground....

The 702 is great, I can now see what's happening, Thanks!!

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PostPosted: December 2nd, 2017, 7:14 pm 
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Location: 1999 Concourse
Sorry about the jumbled quotes in my longer reply - I had the tags messed up (fixed it now, better late than never I guess).

I'm not sure I can get my mind around what's happening now.

So to summarize:

1) You disconnect the 6AWG red wire from your house bank (this should lead fairly quickly to an 80 amp thermal breaker near the house bank, unless Chinook really changed their tune).

2) Now you have no power to the coach DC items?

I'm not sure I can imagine any "normal" way that could happen (but of course people can change things around over the years, or I may be misunderstanding). Back when I had my stock system, I removed the generator start altogether and the coach stuff still worked fine (this was just one step in my process where I removed the brown box, and also put the generator start on the house bank).

Maybe look at the 1998 drawing and just pretend the generator start wire goes to the house bank? I mean, since there are a couple of mistakes on the 2000 drawing.

I guess if it were me I'd reconnect everything and then just do it all again, step by step. Sometimes when I do that I find a mistake I made, or I find some quirky thing someone else did, or it just clicks in my mind for some reason.

Or post again and we'll keep noodling :D

Good to hear you like the 702. Nothing like data :)

Did you program it for your battery bank/size/Peukert factor, etc? The more accurately you tell it about your batteries, the better the data will be.

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