I am converting to 4x4!

[Astrodokk]

I've researched these Chinook conversions for quite a while now.
Quigley is the top, but they don't touch our old rigs anymore unless it came with theirs originally.
Quadvan has a good reputation but is months out and pricier than I can afford. I bought the 2019 E-450 front end from them if anyone is interested after I convert. I'm also replacing the rear MorRyde system with progressive leaf springs, if anyone is interested (Chin).
I heard of others but not so good reports.
Then I started seeing many YouTube videos from E series owners talking about AJ's 4x4 Vans in Portland. I researched many weeks, viewing videos and actually spoke with the owner, Art. He has been very forthcoming with information. He's been patient with all my questions.
Their pricing is reasonable and less than the other top guys, most likely because they aren't as well known yet.
What I like is that they use all Ford OEM parts, except for two brackets that they manufacture to allow for better caster.
They will use a 2005-2008 Ford Dana Super 60, which means I have to use 17" rims up front. So not real sure about tires up there yet, but since it will be around a 5-6" lift, I'm asking for close to stock size tires since I will be keeping the rear dually wheels stock for now, which are 225/75R16.
I may want to put 235/85R16 back there. That is the max size without dually rub.
Trying to figure out if I should go with smaller tires up front to match rear look or go with 17" rims in rear with thinner tires (not sure if that can work with duallys yet.
I still have to consult with Art about that.
Any opinions about that company or my ideas for the rim conundrum?

[JabberBox]

There is considerably more to it than they are telling you apparently. You dont have a choice other than using a 17 inch wheel up front because a 16 will not clear the brake calipers on the 2005+ dana 60 axles. Also note that the 2005 super 60 has an 8x200mm lug pattern where as your chinook has an 8x6.5 inch lug pattern. The 2005 dana 60 unit bearings however are 8x170mm, they then use a dually adapter which is 4 inches thick with 8x170mm lug pattern on the bearing hub by 8x200mm on the wheel side. i searched hi and lo for a company that makes an 8x170mm to 8x6.5 front adapter but could not locate anyone. I spoke with Chris at Ujoint Offroad who claimed they had an adapter to repace the factory unit in order to retain the ford 8x6.5 wheels... however they wont sell them to anyone who doesnt have a Ujoint conversion on their truck. Also note... Ujoint does not use the 2005+ axles. That said even if they sold me a pair it would do me no good because the 16 inch ford dually wheels will not clear the 2005+ brake calipers.

Then your next hurdle is of course finding wheels with the correct offset and width. If you plan to only change the front wheels and carry two different spares its a non-issue. I stopped working on mine and put it up forsale some months ago because i got deadly sick and even today still am not well most days. It reached the point i couldnt even function day to day so all i could do was lay in bed and hope tomorrow was a better day. Anyway i just left the Chinook in the driveway as i lost interest in even trying to sell it since it was full of belongings and i didnt have the energy to even clean my stuff out literally..

I am currently waiting to hear back from a machinist in Maine who specializes in manufacturer custom bearing hubs for tractor pulling trucks and other race type heavy trucks. I spoke with them on the phone last summer and explained everything i needed and he said it was no problem and quoted me a price for a pair of custom rear bearing hubs with the 8x200mm lug pattern so i could run 17 inch wheels on all four corners. I recently sent him an email with design plans and the go ahead on the project but have not heard back yet.

But if youre paying someone else to do the swap for you then they most likely have their own solutions to the wheel dilema. My primary stumbling block is that i was not willing to run a wheel adapter on the back of this 10,500 pound chinook. Dont get me wrong, a person can just run a 17 inch up front with the factory 16 inchers on the back and risk being stuck without the correct spare tire if you have a flat at some point. Its just not something i personally would want to risk if i was hundreds of miles from no where. I attached a couple of pictures so you can reference the lug pattern diameter. If you zoom in on the chinook you can clearly see the 2005+ dana 60 front lug pattern is considerably larger than the rear lug pattern. That said your custom wheel selection for a ford E350/450 dually truck is slim to none without running an adapter in the back, which in my opinion is a no no in terms of safety on a heavy truck.

In regards to your asking for opinions on the shop your looking at having do the work.... I cant say anything because i havent done business or seen their work in person. You could join sportsmobile forum as there are a couple of people that have had work done there. I wont comment on what i read one way or the other.

[JabberBox]

P.S..... I had air suspension on the back of my rig but that has since been replaced with custom progressive leaf springs rated for the trucks weight loaded with gear and the tanks full. Also note the rim conundrum as you state gets far more complicated than you think. If i were you i would go slide under the back of your chinook and look at how much space you have between the back side of your tire and the side of the leaf spring....

There are no 17 inch wheel options for the back of the chinook right off the shelf unless you plan to run a wheel adapter back there. If you looked under your chinook at the distance between the leaf spring and your tire you can see that your next issue is backspacing/offset. If you run a wheel any wider than whats already on your chinook the tire will be rubbing the springs, so again your looking at having to use an adapter/spacer.

Your other option is to have Ujoint offroad do it and pay a small fortune and use the older leaf spring axle which allows you to retain the 16inch wheels due to the smaller brake diameter. I dont personally like Ujoints conversions because it shoves the axle forward in the range of 1.5 inches. To me, and its purely opinion... i think the Ujoint conversions look kind of clownish with the axle shoved forward but thats just me.

One more issue, the 2005+ Dana 60 has vaccuum assisted lockouts which in my opinion are absolute GARBAGE. Ditch them and get a Dynatrac or Spyntec freespin kit. It will add about $2 grand to your bill but it will eliminate those horrid vaccuum seals as well as eliminate the crappy ass unit bearings and you will be able to service your wheel bearings.

[Astrodokk]

Hey JabberBox, thanks for replying with that good advice.

I'll be consulting with them tomorrow with all my questions, so yeah, we haven't discussed most of it considerably yet.
I do know for sure that the front rims are mandatory 17". I'd like BFG or General AT tires up there. Since they are doing the work, they know what rims (offset) and tire size to use, as they supply them to customers when requested. I will ask them to provide those for me. I'm sure there are price point choices.

I've been reading so much that I may have misspoken about the axle. I believe someone asked them if they used Super 60, and if I recall correctly, they said no. They use the standard Dana 60. I'm almost sure of it. I got confused a little.

What difference would that make though, except for the adapters you mentioned (I'm still not clear on those).
Their kit also comes with a 4" rear block (it will work with my MorRyde). Anything else is extra.

I can choose to remove the rear MorRyde and install custom progressive springs (which I may do either there or at Weldtec), add FOX shocks, and either stay with the stock wheels or change that out. I can wait on this with the 4" blocks in place and do it later. Like you, I'd like to have all four corners the same.

After reading not only your reply to me here, but also your thread about your 4x4 conversion, I am concerned somewhat about spacers in the rear.
I know the shop can provide the proper 17" rims and dually tires, bc they've done it before. But I'm not sure how it's done. That is one of the questions I will ask.

Thanks for all the insight.

[JabberBox]

I kinda suspected you didnt understand the Dana 60 versus the super 60 fully so i just played along using the super 60 name to keep things simple. The super 60 is wider than the standard dana 60 of that year. If i am not mistaken the super 60 uses a 210mm lug pattern versus the 200mm on the standard unit. Be clear even the standard dually dana 60 is beyond heavy enough for the chinook. That said everything i stated in other posts and here applies to the standard dana 60 even though i called it super 60 so as not to insert more confusion. The super 60 is actually to wide for your needs. Mine is a standard dana60 from a 4x4 dually F350. Also note it weighs between 500 to 600 pounds.

As far as the wheels go, unless he has someone custom building wheels i dont know how he would be using the same wheel front and back without an adapter considering the different lug patterns you will have front versus rear. Follow me? Theres no way around the fact that your new front axle is going to be 8x200mm because thats what they come with. My guess is he is using some kind of adapters on the rear if he is putting the same wheels on all four corners..

With all of that said.... any adapter that is used has to be thick enough to allow bolting it on the lugs while maintaining strength etc... that means its going to push your tires and wheels outwards beyond the fender lips in the rear, so have a look at where your tires currently sit in relation to your fender and try to picture them moved out further an inch or possibly more with an adapter.

Also to clarify, if you use a 2005+ dana 60 you dont need to mess with your brake booster stuff. The actual Super 60 axle is to wide for our conversion purposes, your tires would be sticking out beyond your fenders . The standard dana 60 2005+ out of an F-250 or F-350 is the perfect width for this conversion. The super 60 axles came in trucks such as the Ford F-550 and heavier utility type vehicles, thats why they are wider than the F-350 axles.

[Astrodokk]

If you don't mind, could you tell us how you did it for your rear wheels? I recall you bought four Dodge Ram 17" wheels.
You mentioned something about spacers.

My front lockers will be rebuilt manuals, not vacuum (if you meant the lock as you fly system).

[JabberBox]

I could but then i would have cut your tongue out so you didnt tell anyone else...

Just kidding, yes i used Dodge Ram dually wheels. obviously the fronts are already installed and as i stated earlier i am waiting for the machinist in Maine to get back in touch so he can get the rear hubs machined to put the rear ones on. The reason i chose the dodge ram wheel is because of the backspacing/offset and the fact that they have the exact same 8x200mm lug pattern as the ford. Starting in 2019 thru 2022 the dually RAMs went to the 8x200mm lug pattern. But you cant forget that our trucks are hubcentric, meaning the center bore of the wheel has to fit snugly onto the shoulder of your bearing hubs to support the weight of the vehicle properly. SO when i say dually adapter, i am referencing this OEM ford part which your dana 60 axle will have on it as well.......The sole purpose of this OEM adapter is to move the wheel mounting surface outwards away from the rotor so that the same deep offset dually wheels that are used on the back can be used on the front as well.

The lug nuts on the back side are 8x170mm, where as the lug studs that hold the wheels on are 8x200mm. In order to use the 2019+ dodge ram wheels on the front you have to machine the hubcentric shoulder in the center down approximately 1 millimeter.

Or your other option is to just bolt Ford F-350 wheels directly on the front. As far as the rear goes, either wheel (dodge or ford) is going to require custom made bearing hubs with the larger 8x200mm lug pattern, unless youre going to risk using wheel adapters on your truck. But even those will have to be custom ordered. IMO the only correct safe way to do it is to have custom rear bearing hubs manufactured, which is what i am doing. The reason behind the dodge wheel again, is the offset/backspacing. So if you look at the clearance between your leaf springs and the back of your tires on the rear. You will see that you only have approximately 1/4" of clearance. The ford F-350 wheels are 7 inches wide with considerably more backspacing than the E series wheels. Thats a problem even when it comes to machining new bearing hubs. You will have to machine the larger diameter lug surface further outwards on the hub so that the tires clear your leaf springs still. That redistributes the load unevenly threw the spindle bearings, placing most of the load outwards on the smaller outer wheel bearing. The dodge wheels solve that problem because the backspacing/offset is minimally greater than the factory E series wheels and they are only 6 inches wide versus the F-350 wheel at 7 inches wide. Get all that?

[JabberBox]

So heres a ford rear spindle bearing hub, its the part that your wheel bolts to. The deeper the offset is on your wheels, the further out you will have to move the new lug stud surface in order to prevent your tires from hitting on the leaf springs. This could result in premature bearing fatigue and failure because you have shifted the load of the vehicle onto the outer bearing inside the hub. The Dodge wheels keep this effect minimal. Keep in mind when you move the lug surface outwards on the hub, you must also move the hubcentric shoulder an equal amount. As far as spacers or adapters, i dont use them on my vehicles because i simply do not trust them, and certainly not something i am willing to take a chance using on a tall heavy truck like a chinook at 75 mph on the freeway. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. I do have a set of adapters here to bolt 8x200 dodge wheels on the back of the chinook, but they arent mine. I was helping Tim at Timberline come up with an adapter to do the swap but then i got really really sick last september and havent even fully recovered yet today, so they are just sitting here in the box at this point. One is an adapter to bolt dodge wheels on and the other is to bolt ford wheels on. That said, anytime i reference a dually spacer or adapter on "my" truck, i am refering to the OEM Ford dually spacer that comes on all of the ford dually trucks not an after market part. There are guys on the van forums that run wheel spacers/adapters on the backs of their rigs and claim no problems, but their trucks also do not weigh 10,500 pounds with nothing in them.

[Astrodokk]

Ok, I see.
I will ask them today how they go about getting around this for the rears of these E series RVs, as they seem to have done a few now.
Thanks.

[Astrodokk]

UPDATE:
I spoke with the shop owner, and we discussed my concerns about using adapters for the 16" 8x6.5 rear rims.
He's also done this kit with the customer keeping it all stock in back except for changing tire size to match the front height, but I don't want that.
He said that if I want the same size on all four corners without any extraneous pieces like adapters and spacers, that I can have a Ford F-350 rear dually axle installed. Then all the bolt patterns will be the same (8x200mm), and the wheels will all match.
This is assuming that I get all the rest of the parts installed to make room, like the rear custom progressive springs et cetera.
By the way, this kit uses coil springs up front, not leaf springs.
I'm considering going this route.