110 Volt Fridge

[pdemarest]

Thanks to everyone for their input on this. Still here in Oregon as some of the changes I've made to accommodate a 110 volt fridge are raising costs and time needed for installation.

On the issue of using golf cart (6 volt) batteries; AM Solar is using AGMs mounted on their sides in the original battery compartment with the pullout tray removed. Since these are gel batteries they don't have to be upright. AM is very thorough and they were in the process of reinforcing the floor of the compartment with marine plywood so it can handle the additional weight. These batteries are very tall so this is the only way they would fit in that area.

On the inverter they have switched me over to a pure sine wave inverter that is rated for up to 600 watts and is fan-less so there will be no noise and it should be able to handle a small 110 volt fridge.

As far as getting the old one out and the new one in I've already discussed this with one of the RV service centers I use and they will take the side window out; my rig is a Premier with no side doors so this is the only way. Probably have to bring the new fridge in the same way.

Blue - loved your "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" method for fridge removal! I can just picture your old fridge up at that guys cabin with the two halves duct-taped together.

So, the installation proceeds. Probably won't get my rig back until Thursday morning sometime but I'm very impressed with AM Solar's staff and expertise. There was even a guy there from Vancouver who is starting his own solar installation company up there and was doing research with AM based on their reputation.

Thanks to all for their input. I'll post an update next week.

[pdemarest]

For those of you who have taken your original fridge out - did you happen to measure the space that your old fridge sat in? The fridge I'm looking at is 56 inches tall (with the feet attached) and 24 inches wide and 24 inches deep, while my current fridge appears to be just over 52 inches tall. I'm hoping that there's some space above my current fridge to allow me to put in a slightly taller unit. Since there already a large vent in the back of the existing fridge I'm hoping that will allow for sufficient air to circulate around the coils without having to leave space on the sides and bottom of the unit.

[Blue~Go]

Question for you: Since you have a Premier, there is a range of fridges you might have had stock. One is the Single door (freezer is inside with a separate plastic door) Norcold 6053 (at least this was in late 90's Premiers). Or you might have had the double door (meaning a separate outside freezer door on top, vs. the plastic door inside the main door) Dometic RM3663 (was in late 90's Concourses and I've seen it in later model Premiers as well).

A hint is that the single door Norcold has a small storage compartment above it with a door that matches the rest of the Chinook cabinetry. It's only half depth because of the "chimney" in the back that's necessary when your refrigerator operates with a flame). The Dometic RM3663 goes right up to the ceiling. I'll come back with some dimensions after I look at my files.

[Blue~Go]

Okay, so here is what Dometic lists as the "recess" dimensions of the RM 3663. (The bigger two door model that was usually in the Concourse and sometimes in the Premier.) The refrigerator itself would be slightly smaller, but this is what they specify you build as a compartment, so is likely what you are looking for.

Height = 59-15/16"
Width = 23-11/16"
Depth = 24"

Depending on how much you might want to fiddle with things, I found that there was a wee bit of extra space above the generator box due to the fact that they had plush carpeting plus carpet padding and a bit of air space below the lower fridge plywood platform. Things like Dynamat can reduce sound more than carpet and take up a bit less space. Not a huge difference but if it comes down to fractions. I wanted to keep the refrigerator as low as possible, so I removed the carpet and padding, cleaned off the glue, and will go back with a Dynamat type combo of products. I also beefed up the lower shelf slightly, but still ended up with some additional height.

However there is another consideration. If you notice where the refrigerator roof chimney/vent fitting is for the absorption fridge, on the outside of your rig, you will see it sits in a little recess. That takes around 4" or so away from the height of the compartment at the rear, and also comes inwards around 10". In other words, the roof recess comes down into the "room." I could take specific measurements of that if you like. You can also see the forward part of it in the microwave compartment if you remove the microwave and look behind it.

For the Norcold 6053 (the single door model that was in at least late 90's Premiers), the recess dimensions are listed as follows:

Height = 43-1/4"
Width = 23-1/2"
Depth = 24"

[pdemarest]

Hi Blue - I have the two-door fridge so your measurements will work for me - thanks! That part about the fridge vent and the walls angling in does make me a bit nervous. My Premier seems to be more "flat-sided" than the older Concourses but I do know it slopes in at the top. The depth of the fridge I'm looking at is also 24" so I'm hoping that it will fit. When you pulled your old fridge out did you remove all the "innards" too? I'm wondering if I get rid of the chimney and the innards it may give me the room I need. Probably need to bite the bullet and pull the microwave out to see what's what. Also like the idea of insulating the generator box more. That thing is SO LOUD. I use it to run the A/C, which helps drown out the noise but when I run it to charge the batteries its like sitting next to an idling jetliner. Hopefully the generator will get a lot less use but I do need it up at the lake in the summer so I'm looking at how to quiet the outside noise down. Have an Onan muffler that I need to install but wondered if lining the inside of the generator box with Dynamat would help with the outside noise. I've seen products for under the hood that state that they can absorb some of the sound but not sure if that works.

As always, thanks for your advice. This forum is such a great source of information and also reassures me that these rigs are worth keeping and modifying, especially compared to similar van-based campers.

[Blue~Go]

Okay, so you probably have the Dometic RM3663 (or similar) that runs full height.

Maybe my description was not the best. Although the outside wall does slope in a bit (on all Chinooks at least from the mid-90's onward), I hadn't mentioned that (or didn't mean to anyway). What I was talking about was the "indent" for the outside roof vent that goes along with a propane type refrigerator. Even compressor refrigerators need ventilation, of course, but when you are burning fuel (literally) to run the refrigerator you need much more. That "indent" that you see if you look on the outside of the roof (where the vent sits) is (of course) reflected on the inside as well. So there is this inward bulge that's around 4" tall and 9-10" deep in the outer/upper part of the fridge "hole."

It actually gives you a bit more height than the sporty dip that runs all around the Chinook roof edge (which is what gives you that loss of a corner/space in the upper cabinets), but it extends inward more than the roof edge dip does. Let me see if I have a photo, which will make it more clear.

Okay, so looking for some photos (see next post), I see that it looks as though the original refrigerator simply sat below that vent indent. So as long as you stick to the original dimensions (height especially), you likely won't have to worry about that. I'll show what I mean in the photos.

As far as removing the chimney guts, you will be doing that for sure. I say that because it's all part of the refrigerator, and will come out with the rear half (if you saw it as I did) of the refrigerator. If you look in the access panel on the outside of the rig near the bottom of the refrigerator, you can see a bunch of Pachinko looking metal tubes and etc. -- that's all part of the back of the original refrigerator and will be coming out along with it. So you will just be left with a rectangular, plywood hole, essentially.

I have chosen to eliminate the lower vent area, because it's a notorious source of leaks (doesn't help that the wall slopes there in a way that makes it more likely to leak). Mine hadn't leaked, but it had been stored indoors, and I'm now camping outdoors! My new refrigerator requires 25 square inches of vent space both "in" and "out" for the compressor (every compressor should specify what it needs). Right now I'm running a "cooler shaped" compressor refrigerator (same compressor though, coincidentally), and I haven't finalized the venting for the "real" one yet. I may leave the roof vent (which doesn't seem to be an abnormal leak zone), and then devise a different outside intake; or I may go completely internal with the venting. It adds a small bit of heat to the interior that way, but then I'm just as often wanting a touch of heat as I am to not have it, and it's very little anyway. (I have the cooler type refrigerator indoors, and that does both intake and vent inside, so I know about how that would be - basically unnoticeable.) But we'll see how it ends up

(Obviously 25" square can be either a 5" square hole, or a 25" long 1" slit, or something in between.)

One thing to be aware of is that any screening or louvers reduce "free area" by quite a bit, so that's something to take into consideration. Also, refrigerators with built in compressors have them located in a variety of places (top, bottom, etc.) so that might want to be taken into account as well for the ventilation aspect. At least on the Danfoss compressors (probably others as well since it's just physics), it's important that the intake cannot take in the heated air that's being exhausted. The Danfoss compressors I have use a fan on the exhaust side blowing outward, which also results in "passively" sucking air in to being the cooling cycle (in other words it doesn't suck air in with a fan, but rather pushes it out which causes new air to come in to replace it).

I'm not sure exactly how AC residential refrigerators work, but just something to consider.

By the way, I'm not sure why you are wanting a residential AC refrigerator instead of a DC marine type one. That's not to say there aren't good reasons, but just that unless you do have a specific reason, it's probably more efficient (power wise) and in a way simpler (mounting wise) to use a DC refrigerator that is mean to be installed in a moving boat/vehicle. On the other hand, I can think of some reasons why you might want an AC/residential refrigerator, so not saying you shouldn't!

I'll see if I can dig up some photos and post them.

[Blue~Go]

For starters, here are a couple of photos showing the rear of the original refrigerator, after it was removed. This is basically what any absorption (propane) refrigerator looks like on the back. The pipes/burner/etc. are the "cooling unit" and are affixed right to the back of the refrigerator.

And here is a photo of the original refrigerator in the original Concourse cabinetry. Looking at this reminded me that the refrigerator didn't go all the way up to the ceiling (although there is no accessible cupboard space above it). So this leads me to the conclusion that the "vent indent" was simply avoided by having the refrigerator live completely below it. Hence as long as a new one is no taller one likely will not have to worry about said indent.

[Blue~Go]

And here are a few construction photos that show some of the things mentioned above. I realize that I just said you probably don't have to worry about the vent indent, but since I mentioned it I thought you (and/or someone else reading in future) might like to see it anyway.

This first photo is of the forward closet wall. This would also be the "right hand" refrigerator wall as you face the refrigerator. You can see the vent indent at the top (black fiberglass). This wall is just aft of the end of the indent, so does not intersect it (instead it intersects the normal sporty dip that runs all the way around the roof edge). The white rectangle is just a bit of left over paneling that I was using to temporarily cover the vent hole to keep wind out.

In the next photo the darker wall in the background is the same closet wall from the previous photo, and the lighter wall is the beginnings of the wall that separates the refrigerator area from the stove area. This shows how the "vent indent" on the roof continues into the above-stove area. It's hidden behind the microwave in the original interior setup. You can also see how the vent indent relates to the "sporty dip" that runs around most of the roof edge. (The dangling wires are the microwave AC outlet and some of the roof air AC wiring.)

This photo shows the refrigerator as more of a compartment, which is also how it is originally. You can just see the black "vent indent" peeking out up at the top. Down below, you can also see how the generator box relates. In this photo the generator box has been stripped of all carpet/padding/glue so it's just the bare metal (in my rig it is a sheet metal box that extends both above and below the living area floor, and encloses the generator). This is before the addition of modern-day soundproofing.

The overall refrigerator compartment is less "protruding" into the hallway than the original (which was one of my big goals). If you look at the ceiling you can see a line in the carpeting that's some inches out from the new box - that's the line of the original refrigerator front wall. I wanted a more roomy hallway space as I didn't like the constricting effect of the original (and along the same lines, the "limbo cooking" position under the microwave).

BG

[pdemarest]

Wow! Thanks for all the photos and details on this. My main concern was whether or not a residential fridge would fit but now I can see that it will. I'm going with a residential (110 volt) fridge to get away from the weakness of a gas absorption unit in high temperatures and because the Engels/Dometic/other 12 volt models are relatively small for our needs. We camp with our kids/grandkids and in the past we have actually spent over $100 a weekend on ice due to the hot climate up where we camp. So, much of the food for this gang winds up in our fridge to avoid having to buy ice everyday. I can't seem to find a 12 volt DC fridge that has at least 6 cubic feet of storage and separate doors for the freezer and fridge.

Again, amazing detail on your fridge removal. You mentioned that you eliminated the outside vent for the old fridge; are you talking about the large louvered panel on the outside wall?

Paul

[Scott]

I just checked my records and my stock fridge was the Norcold 6052. Single door, short, and I have a cabinet above. I figured I could contribute with some pics for future generations. I don't have a pic of the final installation trimmed out, but should be able to get one tomorrow. For now, here's what I did.