Chinook RV

Manitou:

I'll read the link, thanks. I still don't think an AGM battery gives much advantage to Alan right now, but that doesn't mean not to buy one.

kyidletime wrote:Interesting! The newer solenoid on my rig has a grey wire connected to it, and the grey wire is also loose at the switches area in the dash, however, the left of my two older solenoids has a purple wire which changes to orange under the dash and is also loose. Like I have said, the loose yellow wire goes to the positive post on the house battery and is hot. I also have a loose white wire. So, in summary I have yellow, orange, gray, and white wires loose.

Okay, so here is what I think. First a review of what we think we know of the original Chinook system.

1) Looking at the diagram with the two solenoids, which does seem to match your rig, I don't think either of those solenoids is involved in your "house battery on off switch." Here is why I say that: You have three functions going on here. Two of them can be switched manually, and the other one is automatic (you don't see it, you don't control it, there is no switch).

A) Right solenoid (as looking from standing in front with hood open) is the one that manually combines your battery banks for jumping your own rig. That is the left switch on your dash, and the blue wire.

B) Left solenoid (as looking from standing in front with hood open) is the one that automatically combines and decombines the house and start batteries when you are driving or camping. Since it is not a "smart" solenoid (they go on voltage), I think it has a direct connection to the ignition and simply combines when engine is running and decombines when engine is not running. Which, if you think about it, should work fine. There is NO manual switch for this, I don't think. You don't "see" it at all, it just happens. This should be the purple/orange wire (as coming from under the hood and shown on diagram).

C) Mystery solenoid/relay (maybe the shiny Echlin?). This allows you to switch heavy cables (i.e. house battery cables) with a small switch (right hand dash switch). We don't know what color the wire is, but maybe yellow, since there is a yellow wire "floating around there" on the Chinook diagram?

So here are my guesses (and they are just that) based on what we now know (I've been keeping "score" on a piece of paper ).

First of all, to set the stage, my guess is that most people don't take a perfectly functioning system and start jury rigging it for no reason (now, granted, I did take out my perfectly good system and re-do it, but then I didn't leave ragged cutouts and loose wires dangling). So to my mind, something quit working properly, and someone did a bit of modifying. So I wouldn't be surprised if a solenoid or two are not functioning. Another possibility is that the PPO didn't like the fact that the Chinook "off house" switch actually still leaves some things live (detectors and etc.) and so put in a manual battery switch. But a little voice tells me the former is more likely.

My initial thoughts are these, addressing the loose wires under the dash (white/grey/orange/yellow).

1) Loose orange wire: I would have thought this connected to the ignition, in order to "automatically" combine or discombine house battery and alternator/start battery. Not to any visible switch.

2) Loose grey wire: Maybe this went to the solenoid (the Echlin?) that allowed a "small" switch to switch a big load (house battery power on and off to DC loads).

3) Loose yellow wire that now goes to positive battery post and is hot. I would have thought this also went to the solenoid (Echlin) and thence to the battery. Maybe in the "re-do" this was changed. I really don't think it can be correct to go from a 20 amp switch (right hand one on dash) straight to a battery that can be called on to deliver over a hundred amps.

4) Loose white wire: The ground wire for the original lighted switch.


Maybe you can test some of the wires "supposing" that the functions above are true, and see if they act correctly?

kyidletime wrote:The three post switch that I have gotten is a 12v, 20 amp, single throw switch, the posts are labeled as: "supply volts", "on acc", and "earth ground". What are your thought as to which color of loose wires would connect to which posts of the switch.

On the switch, I'm sorry, but I forgot to account for the fact that it is lighted. So the third terminal (ground) has to do with the fact that it is lighted. So here is how I would think you should wire it:

Supply = your 12 volt constant hot wire (but not directly to the battery!)
On/acc = to the switched device (maybe the Echlin solenoid that we are thinking does this?)
Ground = gets grounded (because light bulb needs its own ground).

Okay so to summarize. My guess is that some of your original parts (solenoids/relays) are broken. The manual battery switch was then added. So it may do one of two things. It may take the place of the left hand solenoid, and manually combine or discombine your house and start batteries (instead of the orange/purple wire we think went to the ignition). OR, it may be the "on/off/store" switch (that was the right hand dash switch) that either connects or disconnects your DC house loads from the house battery. Maybe you can figure out if it does one or the other and that will be a clue.

If any of this does or doesn't make sense, I'm happy to "dig" deeper with additional info.

BG

You made the following statement (Supply = your 12 volt constant hot wire (but not directly to the battery!) The hot yellow wire that I have "is" attached directly to the house battery positive post. Is that still the one that you would suggest connecting to the supply on my switch.

I'm going to attempt to draw a more detailed sketch of the wiring on my rig, showing all of the solenoids, batteries, and switches, and how they are wired.

kyidletime wrote:You made the following statement (Supply = your 12 volt constant hot wire (but not directly to the battery!) The hot yellow wire that I have "is" attached directly to the house battery positive post. Is that still the one that you would suggest connecting to the supply on my switch.

To clarify: I think this yellow wire is the one that should run between the dash switch and a relay. Then in turn the relay has other connections for the large positive cable that runs from the house battery positive to the main DC panel load center (DC house fuses).

To flesh it out more: One generally runs a "large" cable from the house battery positive to the main house DC load fuse panel. This cable is large so as to avoid voltage drop. You want to be able to switch this cable off in order to be able to disconnect house loads from house battery (storage, fire, doing work on downstream wires, etc.).

So if you use something like the Blue Sea 6006 (what I put in), you can put it right on the big cables. It's sized for it. In fact you DO put it not only right on the big cables, but right along the route because you don't want these cables to wander all over the place (voltage drop, safety, etc.), nor do you want lots of "live wire" between the switch and the battery. But let's say you want a convenience switch that's not right on the path of the big cables, like the one on your dashboard. And also you want to use a "friendly size" small switch (like your 20 amp one). Then typically one uses a relay, which basically uses a small signal to control a big signal. I believe your small/lighted dash switch would have had some sort of relay (the Echlin?), and then it's not actually the yellow wire that brings power from the house battery to the DC main panel, but rather a larger cable (in my rig it was originally a #8, not ample but much bigger than the yellow wire).

So to summarize:

If you have a big switch (Blue Sea or equivalent) right on the main path of the big positive cable that runs from house battery to house main DC panel area, then you interrupt the big cable with the switch. But if you have a smaller "convenience switch" on your dash or etc., then you use a smaller wire to a relay (and the big cable goes from the house battery to the relay to the DC main panel, and small wires go from the convenience (dash) switch to the relay as well. But the small wires don't go right to the battery.

In the 1997+, it's similar. There is a small convenience switch on the overhead of the driving compartment, and it does disconnect the house battery from the house load panel, but it doesn't go right to the battery. Bigger cables go from the battery to the house load panel. (In the 1997+ I believe the LVD incorporates some sort of relay, but same concept.) The small wire doesn't do the actual job, it just "relays" the message to the larger wire through the LVD. But if the LVD weren't there with it's internal components, it could just be a stand-alone relay.

So, can you trace the "big" (maybe #8) positive wire that connects the DC main panel to the house battery positive? I think you should find something like a #8 red cable, not a small wire. If this cable goes to the Echlin relay, then I think we have some answers.

Does that make it more clear? If not, please just ask again, as I know it can be confusing.

I've been working om that wiring diagram (damn, some of those wires are hard to follow!), but don't have it ready to send yet. I can tell you though that on the Eichlin solenoid one side has a #6 or #8 red wire going to the positive post on the house battery, and the other side goes down (with maybe a#10 red wire) towards the starter. As far as the two older solenoids, a red #6 or 8 wire goes from the positive on the house battery to the left solenoid then through the right solenoid and then to the positive post on the start battery.

Speaking of batteries, I disconnected the house battery and then retested both batteries and got readings of 9.88 volts on the house battery and 12.3 volts on the start battery. When the battery was connected I got 11.8 volts on bot batteries. Also with the house battery disconnected and my rig plugged in to house ac my dc system was working.

Another thing, the house battery is toast, all of the cells were dry as a bone, and calcified.

It would be great to see a diagram (or even sketch) of how things are routed. I think we can safely say that it may not be as stock, and some "rigging" has been done, not all of which may be 100% best practice. This can make it a bit more complicated, and may make it not worthwhile try to resurrect the stock system.. For example, maybe the Echlin relay is taking the place of the combiner relay because it died (I say that since the wire goes down toward the starter or alternator). I guess there is no way to know without more tracing or testing of wires.

A dry battery at 9.8 volts does explain why your house stuff wasn't working. I'd say that's toast.

It may be going up to 11.xx when you combine it with the healthier start battery because they are essentially trying to even out (that's not good for your start battery though so I would not do that at this point in time).

I'll get that wiring sketch posted just as soon as I get it finished, got dark on me tonight. Also, I don't think that the Walmart battery that you recommended will work, all of their batteries are too wide for my battery tray. The try measures 13 7/8" long and 5 3/8" wide. I'll just have to look for a battery that will fit.

Understood on the getting dark - it does that too early now!

Good catch on the battery tray. If you don't already have one, here are some links that lists Group sizes. I still check the actual brand's battery specs after determining the best Group size, just because they are not all exactly the same.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/bc ... sizes.html

https://www.batteryweb.com/bci.cfm

I like the look of the marine batteries that Walmart has to offer, so I'm toying with the idea of putting in another battery tray that would accommodate their battery. Got to check to see if I have enough room though, length isn't a problem, width might be though, I would be adding 2".

Here is my wiring sketch, hope that you can understand it. There were some of the red wires that I just couldn't follow. One thing that I discovered that I was in error about. The hot yellow wire under the dash does not hook on to the house battery positive, it must pick up it's voltage from somewhere under the dash.

Hi Alan,

Just got home - I'll take a look at your diagram. Must've felt good to get that documented.

If you can adapt your tray to take Group 27 batteries (which probably means Group 31 would fit as well), that might not be a bad thing. Group 27 is a common size, thus easy to find and often economical. They are around 100 amp hours, so "rule of thumb" 50 usable.

But you may not want to use that rule of thumb. The "rule" is that if you only discharge a battery (or bank of batteries) to the 50% charged level, then they last the longest. However, 50 amp hours is pretty limiting. Since you only have room for one battery right now, and you are probably going to use "cheapish" batteries, there is a case to be made for running them down a bit further (say to 25% charged) and accepting that they won't last quite as long (on the other hand, you'll get more amp hours between charges, and you only have the weight of one battery to carry, and the expense of one to replace).

So that would give you around 75 amp hours to play with between charges.

I was once able to put a larger battery in my car (up north winter, wanted bigger and more CCA) by slightly reconfiguring the hold down clamps. Worked well. So it may very well be possible on your rig.

PS: Just downloaded the drawing. It's very easy to read. Let me study it a bit.