Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

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Blue~Go
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by Blue~Go »

kyidletime wrote: I just finished bench testing all three of the solenoid and found that ... of the two older ones, one was a little sluggish, and the other on wasn't functional at all.
Okay, well that confirms our (or at least my) suspicions. So I'd say "buh-bye" to those. The 7622 will do both of their jobs better anyway.
kyidletime wrote: ...the newer Eichlin was working fine, Since I had the Eichlin hooked up and it didn't seem to be doing anything other than lighting in one position, and not in the other. Could be that the wiring at the switch was wrong, or the lack of a good house battery. When I checked continuity across the two big posts, with the switch hooked up, I was getting continuity with the switch in either position, but when I was bench testing the solenoid, I was only getting continuity when the solenoid was activated. Does that sound right?
Well those results do seem odd. Sounds like it's working correctly in the bench tests; but then when you use the switch and the switch wiring, it is not. The weird thing is that it's "on" in both switch positions. I'd think it more likely to be off, especially if your battery doesn't have any power.

I guess if it were me, I'd try to eliminate one variable at at time and test everything associated with the switch and the wiring (in such a way that you either corroborate or eliminate things as you go).

For example, what if you took the red wire and the grey wire off the switch and just touched them together without the switch? Then if things worked (consistently), you'd be suspecting the switch. If they didn't work, then it's likely something else, etc.

Also, if you put a volt meter between the red and grey wire, what do you see as a reading? How about if the meter is between the red wire and ground? These would be clues (ignore if you have already done these things).

I'm no solenoid expert, but I can imagine one would fail in such a way that it was intermittent and coincidentally giving results that make you think something else is happening. You might try rapping on it with a small hammer. If that brings it back to life great, but then I'd still be replacing it later I think.

Another variation: Get the solenoid to register continuity (with your bench test or whatever), then remove the wires that stimulated it.... does it stay "on" (continuity) or does it go off (what it should do). This might indicate it's "sticky."

My suspicion is still that something must have gone wrong, before it was re-wired initially, but of course who knows, hence testing it.
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kyidletime
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by kyidletime »

Thanks BG, you have given me some "food for thought", I'm going to do some more checking today, and I'll let you know what I find. I don't really think that there is any problem with the Eichlin solenoid. When I was bench testing it, it was responding as it should. When I energized it I had continuity ate the big posts, and when I took away the power it had no continuity. Also, it had a good healthy click when it was energized. The switch is new, but that doesn't mean that it's not faulty.
Alan Croy
Hamilton, Ohio
1995 Chinook Concourse
Upgraded Converter/Charger System.
kyidletime
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by kyidletime »

As I said that I was going to, I did a little more checking this morning. I think that I may have figured things out. I reinstalled the Eichlin solenoid and connected the small terminals to the switch and leaving the 6 gauge wires off. I found that the solenoid was not getting fully energized without being assisted by a few taps, then I was getting complete continuity with the switch turned on. I went ahead a connected the 6 gauge wires and the switch and the solenoid were both doing their jobs. I may do as you suggested and go ahead and get a new house battery.
I believe that my Blue Sea 7622 is working properly too. When have the remote switch in the automatic position and both batteries connected, everything is fine until the house battery loses enough voltage, then the 7622 breaks the connection between the batteries. Isn't that what it's supposed to do?
Alan Croy
Hamilton, Ohio
1995 Chinook Concourse
Upgraded Converter/Charger System.
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Blue~Go
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by Blue~Go »

I sleep in, and you have everything fixed! :D

Yes, sounds like the 7622 is doing its job. The Blue Sea site goes into more detail, but essentially yes, when it senses either battery voltage going lower (I think the cut off may be around 12.76 volts - at least that is where it is on my smaller Blue Sea version), it "opens," thus dis-combining the batteries. Then, I can't remember the exact detail now, but when it senses charging voltage on one of the banks, it closes, thus combining them and sharing the charge. It's bi-directional, so will also share house charging with start battery.

Maybe the Echlin was just a bit sticky? Well, if it quits working in future you know what it's about anyway. And this isn't something that can "sneakily" cause angst, like a non-working combiner could. I mean, pretty obvious if you flip the switch and the house system doesn't come on. You could always move both big #6 positive cables to one of the large posts and essentially make a power post (this would make house system always "on" so if it failed while camping you would not be in the dark). As long as I can easily get around a failure, and nothing catastrophic would happen, I'm more comfortable with something.

So it sounds like now you have better switches, a MUCH better combiner, and things are all back on line. Right? Sweet! Your system has now jumped from 1995 to 2015 :D No need to pass go or stop on 1997 :lol:
1999 Concourse
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Blue~Go
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by Blue~Go »

PS: One more thing though. I would make sure to fuse those wires properly. Chinook did not always do that, but I think it is important. Otherwise you have a lot of power that would be "unleashed" if anything ever chafed through, shorted, etc.

Basically, you want OCP (over-current protection - fuse or breaker) in two situations:

1) Just as you come off any power source: Battery, charger, solar controller, etc. This may be at either end of a line (so cable between battery and charger would have OCP on both ends, because power source could be at either end.

2) Anytime along the path of a wire that has OCP at the beginning, and the wire changes size (gets smaller)(because a larger fuse will not protect a smaller wire)

Having a fuse right at the house battery, and as shown on the 7622 legs, is important, because the battery is a large "power house" and that power could do a lot of damage quickly if not stopped (by a fuse) in the event of a short or etc.

This could be as easy as putting an MRBF holder on the marine battery post, then your ring terminal that is now on the post (or will be next spring) goes onto the MRBF post. I'll see if I can get a few photos of mine and post them. Sometimes it's easier if you can see it.

You probably noticed this, but anytime there is that "scroll" or "S" shape in a drawing, that is OCP (fuse or breaker).
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kyidletime
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by kyidletime »

I looked at the diagram that you sent again, and saw all of the recommended fuses but only saw one that showed a 2 amp rating. What rating should the other three be?
Alan Croy
Hamilton, Ohio
1995 Chinook Concourse
Upgraded Converter/Charger System.
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Blue~Go
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by Blue~Go »

kyidletime wrote:I looked at the diagram that you sent again, and saw all of the recommended fuses but only saw one that showed a 2 amp rating. What rating should the other three be?
Well, the way it works is that you are fusing according to the wire size. That's because these fuses are protecting the wire (thus if the wire is compromised, they will blow to do that). You fuse according to the "ampacity rating" of the wire. To find that you need to know a few things about your wire:

1) What size is it (say, 6AWG on your new wire)
2) Does it or does it not run through an engine space (what they really want to know is will it be in a hot space)?
3) What is the temperature rating of the wire (will be marked on wire). 105ºC is typical for marine/good wire, but you may also see 90ºC depending on what you bought. I've found 105ºC on pretty much all the Chinook original wire (but always check).
4) Is the wire running "alone" or is it bundled with other wires? If bundled, how many other wires is it bundled with?

BTW, for this the length of the wire doesn't matter. That affects voltage drop but not the ampacity of the wire.

So since your #6 wire is likely running alone (not bundled), we can look at the ampacity chart for single wires. Here it is:
ABYC ampacity fuse chart.jpg

And here is the bundled one for bundles of up to wires. The wire is de-rated more for larger bundles (different chart).
ABYC allowable ampacity bundled.png
Okay, so back to your #6 wire. I don't know what the temperature rating is (should be printed on wire insulation) but let's say it's 90ºC. And the wire is not bundled but IS running through an engine space. So we look on the chart and follow over and see the number 82.0. That means you can safely fuse this wire to up to 82 amps (there are some cases where you can fuse to a certain percentage over rating, sometimes 50%).

But your #6 wire is leading from the house bank to the house DC load center, and also (I presume) from the charger in the load center back to the battery. The charger can put out 45 amps, and you are probably not going to be drawing more than 45 amps on the load center. For this wire I would probably choose something like a 60 amp fuse. Since there is some leeway, I might go with a slightly different size if, say, I already had a bunch of "some other acceptable size" fuses in another location so then I would need fewer different size fuses as spares. Nice to keep the number of spares needed down to a dull roar.

Now, what if you, say, ran #6 wire (or were thinking about it) for the 7622 leads? Then you look at the ampacity chart and see that 82 amps, but you realize that your starter can draw 150 amps, and your alternator might put out more than 82 amps at some point in time. The 7622 wires will need to handle both of these things, since it carries alternator power to the house battery, and may carry house battery power to the starter if you self jump start. Well, that tells you you need to use larger wire so that you can fuse it safely (not to mention voltage drop).

That's why I was saying that once you have your wire lengths figured out for the 7622, shoot me a PM as I may have some left over pieces of larger wire and could make them up for you. But let's say you use 105ºC rated wire for this, and that it (of course) is in an engine space, and that it is not bundled. Let's say you don't want to invoke any "exceptions," but instead want to fuse within the allowable limits listed. So back we go to the chart.... If your starter is similar to the one for the V-10 (don't know for sure) then it can draw around 150 amps. So let's see what size wire we need to use to be able to fuse to say, 200 amps, for starters (heh).

Okay, looking at chart, 105ºC wire, engine room, non-bundled, 200 amp fuse.... we see that leads to #1 wire, showing 208.3 amps. Well, #1 wire is not the most common size (and I don't have any pieces lying around!), and we did already "round up" from 150 amps to 200, and we know we can actually fuse a certain percentage over rating if we choose to. So let's look at #2 wire.... follow across, and see that is rated to 178.5. I would consider that good as far as fusing goes, and would be comfortable fusing it to 200 amps. In fact, my buddy's rig that we re-wired, he did use #2 wire for this run, and did fuse it to 200 amps.

One little potential gotcha to look for: Most Fords/RV's use a chassis ground for the negative (which of course is huge and beefy), BUT they often use little short leads to connect to the chassis, and if one of those is teeny tiny there goes your fusing scheme (I replaced a couple of mine with larger wire - not too bad to do).

Okay, but then you might also like to look at voltage drop, just to see what you have. That requires the wire size be known (or proposed), the amp draw that will occur (or be sent down the line), and the length of the wire (key!). Again there is a certain fudge factor you have to put in, and here is why: Usually you count the "round trip" of the wire in DC. Well that would be simple if you had a red #2 wire going out (positive) and a black or yellow coming back (negative). Add those two lengths together and there is your round trip length. But you have a "# infinity" wire (more or less) coming back on the chassis, so there is a bit of a fudge. Since I'm nearly always trying for low voltage drop, I *do* count the round trip as if it were the same size as the positive wire, but in reality you get a bit of a freebie on the chassis ground return.

Probably easier if we run a real example, so maybe you could come back with a rough idea of the length of wire(s) you'll be putting in for the 7622?
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kyidletime
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by kyidletime »

Whew! That sounds way to complicated for me. Got a question though. If fuse protection of all of the wires is that important, why weren't fuses incorporated in the original wiring? Also, on the installation instructions that came with the 7622, there was a note that read "use circuit protection only if ACR is used for emergency cross connect", that was referring to both of the wires going to the ACR from both of the batteries. I'm not sure what that even means. I might very well be in over my head!!! :shock: :?
Alan Croy
Hamilton, Ohio
1995 Chinook Concourse
Upgraded Converter/Charger System.
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Blue~Go
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by Blue~Go »

kyidletime wrote:Whew! That sounds way to complicated for me.
Oh I know it isn't. Maybe I made it sound harder than it is. Basically, it's like you have someone protecting a doorway. If the doorway is large, you need a large person. If the doorway is small, you need a small person. Fuse according to the wire size by looking at the ampacity chart. Fuse where power first goes into a wire. Re-fuse if that wire gets smaller.
kyidletime wrote:Got a question though. If fuse protection of all of the wires is that important, why weren't fuses incorporated in the original wiring?
I can think of a few possible reasons. One, they didn't understand it. Two, they just didn't for some reason. Three, they did but someone removed it. Four, the wire was too small to properly fuse (like, how do you fuse a #8 wire to carry 150 amps? It's not possible, the fuse would blow. So you don't fuse it and instead you hope there is never a short, and often there won't be.
kyidletime wrote:Also, on the installation instructions that came with the 7622, there was a note that read "use circuit protection only if ACR is used for emergency cross connect", that was referring to both of the wires going to the ACR from both of the batteries. I'm not sure what that even means. I might very well be in over my head!!! :shock: :?
"Emergency Cross Connect" means if you are using the 7622 as part of a system that allows you to "self jump start." You will be setting yours up that way (or at least I think you said you wanted to). That means your two batteries will be linked AND something like 150 amps can be going across the link (starter draw). That big draw is not present if you don't use it to self jump start (alternator power would still go through it, and you likely have something like a 125 amp alternator, but rarely if ever would that many amps actually go down the wire, as the Ford needs some amps to run.

It is possible to do a work around, wherein you connect the two banks but DON'T engage the starter. Instead you wait a while (with them connected) to let some power "seep" from one battery to another, disconnect the two, and then start. I like to be able to do the "real" self jump start because what if I want to get rolling NOW and/or I just don't like a system in place that you can't use without a note like "cross connect but Don't Turn Ignition Key because wires aren't heavy enough." That just rubs me the wrong way.

So if it were me, my next step would be to figure out where to mount the 7622, and how long the wires need to be (the big cables) between it and batteries. If you like, send me a PM when you have the lengths figured out.

Back to the fusing. Things will work just fine without fusing. Where the problem lies is if something goes wrong (wire chafes through, etc.). Because then you have a big bank of stored power (battery) or a constant source of power (alternator, charger, etc.) and nothing to stop it flowing in case of a short (which is very bad news). People do get away with it all the time, but not always. (And many many RV's are not fused properly from the get-go.)
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kyidletime
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Re: Looking for a pre 1997 Chinook concourse Owner

Post by kyidletime »

I already have the 7622 installed, I hooked it up with the existing 4 gauge wires, it is about 1 foot from the start battery, and about 4 to 5 feet from the house battery. The 6 gauge wire from my house battery to the brown box is 25 feet.
I wasn't sure about how to use the pm feature, so I just sent it this way.
Alan Croy
Hamilton, Ohio
1995 Chinook Concourse
Upgraded Converter/Charger System.
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