Ultimate suspension?

[68camaro]

If you are looking to get 4x4 conversion done by shop you may want to call Chris at U-Joint in Asheville, NC. They are a lot closer to you (assuming you are in Dallas) than CA and do fantastic work. Chris can explain his approach as alternative.

[dougm]

Ok Buzzie McBuzzkill! lol! Just messing with you. I agree.

I'm pretty sure I'll never do this but, again, here's the video for the lift solution that could be a game changer. It includes reworked I-beams to address to what you are referring. But a 6" lift. Wow. With that much, I would assume you would be going larger on the tires, which would put you another 1" or more higher. Pretty soon you would have to put red airline warning lights on the a/c unit! I think it would ride nicer, and have more clearance, but there's always a trade-off. That being $4k + installation, and having to worry more about top clearance. Shoot, at 7" higher, it would start becoming a PIA to enter and exit as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65TNK3hKUsc

It is not a game changer. Its what i have on the front of mine. They use 1/2 ton f150/bronco coilsprings on front. Its nearly impossible to get aligned properly.
There are others that have it and have posted how much they love it. But if you get on expedition portal and the sportsmobile forum, you will find a common theme, complaints about not being able to get a proper alignment. In fact mine is coming off this summer to convert to 4x4 so if you wanna try your luck you can buy mine. I wont even get into the steering box issue.

Hey Doug- looking this over again. In your opinion, a coil lift up front, no matter how you accomplish it, will most likely lead to issues? I've talked to WeldTec, with the game changer and Action Van, who use a block in the rear, but coils up front as well. WeldTec uses new leaf springs in the rear.

You mention ditching it all, and going 4x4. I'm assuming that would give you leaf springs up front, correct? How would that be different? Because you are now working with a whole new front axle as well? Did you use WeldTec, specifically, for your lift? I'm just curious as both they and Action use new radius arms, and WT also bends the I-Beams, which by the way, Action was strongly against because they were never intended to be bent.

Just hard to tell what's up and what's down.

Im really not interested in opening this can of worms again. The ford E-350 vans come stock with a Twin I-beam independent front suspension. This system consists of two seperate individual arching arms that articulate individually seperate and apart from one another. A 4x4 conversion incorporates a one piece solid front axle, unless you opt for the old TTB type front axle. You can contact Agile offroad if youre interested in a TTB style axle under your Chinook, but they will tell you that it doesnt work properly under the Chinook. TTB being twin traction beam, TTB installs and functions the same way the twin I-beam functions so you will ultimately build the same characteristics into your truck that it suffered from with twin I-beams.

When the I-beams are manufactured they stamp directly on the I-beam "DO NOT BEND". Im no mechanical engineer by any means, however i do have mechanical experience and imo part of the problem arises from bending the beams. You take a beam that is mostly straight from the factory, you put a force against the front of that beam to simulate driving the vehicle and for the most part all of the force is directed straight back threw the radius arms to the frame. Now bend those I-beams at one end and exert that same force on the front of the beam, the force is still transmitted back threw the radius arms, but now it has leverage to actually try to twist the I-beams at the same time due to the bend in an otherwise straight I-beam. This is just speculation on my part and i have no scientific data to back my conclusion. Doing an alignment on a twin I-beam can be a pain in the A** because the same bushing is used to adjust both the caster and camber. Meaning if everything isnt perfect by manufacturers specifications your going to run into issues being able to get proper camber and caster dialed in at the same time due to the limited range of those alignment bushings. You can only offset a balljoint so far in a hole thats only an inch and half in diameter, huge issue if you have bent your I-beams. You can do work arounds such as getting expensive adjustable radius arms to adjust the caster so that the bushing can be dedicated strictly towards camber adjustment ect.... however there comes a point in time where throwing more money at a poor decision becomes an exercise in futility.

The answer to your question is no, there is a night and day difference between a solid axle 4x4 truck and a twin I-beam 2 wheel drive truck despite both having coil springs. By the way you can also use a leaf spring axle, you arent limited to a coil spring in a 4x4 application. The coil spring suspension is going to be more driver friendly in regards to ride quality. Generally speaking the springs arent what causes problems, bent parts, worn parts, otherwise damaged parts, or incorrect suspension geometry are what causes the issues.

I got my front suspension from Weldtec, installed it and no one was able to put a proper alignment on it because the beams were not bent properly ( as if theres a way to properly bend a part that clearly says DO NOT BEND) causing the tire/wheels to angle severly outwards at the top \-/ like that, each / being a tire. I took it to literally half a dozen different shops attempting to get an alignment, i finally gave up, drove the truck 1200 miles one way to El Cajon, California where weldtec removed the entire front suspension again and replaced it with different components. They then took it to their alignment man who spent over an hour attempting to align it only to come out and tell me that the drivers side was still over 1/2 of a degree out of spec and there was nothing they could do to correct it. Thats a full half degree from even being within the minimum specs, not half a degree off from what the other side is set at. I will not expand on any further details beyond saying that i left pissed off and disgusted with what transpired. To this date, those alignment issues still exist on my truck and if you get on the other forums you will find that it is a common ordeal. If i was to do a simple lift again, i would use the kit that utilizes the brackets versus bending the I-beams.

Theres far more to my personal experience, but i dont care to open that can of worms again, i put it to rest long ago and have moved on from that. Weldtec tried to resolve the problems but ultimately the alignment issues are still there. Thats one of the primary reasons im doing the 4x4 conversion, when i do the 4x4 conversion i will eliminate those bent I-beams. I could simply buy different factory I-beams and radius arms and return it to stock but then i lose my ground clearance which is why i purchased the kit in the first place.

P.S.... no i didnt state or intend to infer that a coil lift regardless how you go about doing it doesnt work. I merely stated that imo, bending the I-beams to gain lift and tossing on 1/2 ton bronco springs on a 6 ton truck is not the route i would persue based on my own personal experience. I can not give an opinion on the kit that uses brackets versus bending I-beams because i have never used their kit. It may work perfectly fine, then again it may very well have its own issues unique to its design flaws, i dont know. Its also not my intention to voice an opinion for the masses, i am telling you my experience, your results might very well be different. I know there is at least one other person on here that used weldtec and claims wonderful results and experience. So again, your mileage may very.

Let me clarify, the owner of Weldtec did everything a person could reasonably expect a person to do in hopes of resolving the problems. However nothing actually resolved the problem. Eventually as stated earlier i simply resigned myself that it was an exercise in futility as there really wasnt anything left to try short of having someone build a custom set of radius arms for it that would allow for adjusting caster seperate and apart from camber. I just wasnt willing to spend anymore money on it at that point and resigned myself that i would simply tolerate it until i was ready to convert it to a 4x4.

[FatBuoy]

SO appreciate the detailed response and sharing your experience. The Action guy pretty much had the same opinion on bending the I-Beams, which makes perfect sense from both of you. Does the bracket version you reference come from Action? There was mention of radius arms, could springs, shocks and blocks for the rear leaf springs.

I’m not sure if I missed it, but what does the 4x4 kit that you will get have that makes the geometry work well? And does it have to come from a full blown conversion, or could I just use the suspension components from that kit to lift it?

[dougm]

Again im converting my rig to four wheel drive, its not the same as a twin I-beam setup. That said im not understanding what exactly it is your asking me.... A 4x4 conversion kit is not going to fit your twin I-beam suspension system unless your planning to go with four wheel drive versus two wheel drive. Its not that a 4x4 system necessarily works better than an I-beam suspension from a geometry point of view or the physics involved or even a matter of it having something more than the I-beam system offers in terms of suspension design. The parts im using to do the 4x4 conversion utilize a coil spring designed specifically for the E series trucks not 1/2 ton bronco springs. In my case its what it doesnt have that suits my needs and that is bent I-beams and the fact that i have concluded that four wheel drive is an option i feel that i need at this point, not just because of the I-beams, but rather because i constantly stray off of the beatin path ultimately finding myself in situations where having 4x4 would have been very beneficial. The reason being is that i travel alone with my dogs so no one else is there to help when and if i end up stuck. I have a 17,500 pound winch in the front bumper, but its useless if your sitting in sand with the front bumper facing an ocean of water. Dont ask me how i know that..

If your asking me specifically how you can install Weldtecs kit on your truck and avoid the issues i have with my truck. I dont have a definitive answer for you beyond stating that short of twisting the I-beams somehow independent of using the alignment bushing to adjust caster, i was unable to achieve a proper front end alignment which caused accelerated uneven tire wear and poor steering characteristics.

Keep in mind i intentionally excluded the obvious benefits of four wheel drive versus two wheel drive because it seemed that your concern was more geared towards what is it about the 4x4 suspension design i felt was more beneficial or better than the I-beam systems. Let me add this, with a twin I-beam suspension you actually have 3 seperate individual axles, that being 2 axles/I-beams in front and one axle in the rear and they all have to be aligned properly if you expect your vehicle to drive down the road straight without getting white knuckles. On an E-450 or a 4x4 you only have 2 axles, an E-450 uses one straight axle in front, a 4x4 in this case will use one straight drive axle in front. The simplicity of the single axle front suspension is its benefit, the trade off is in the ride quality you will sacrafice versus a twin I-beam suspension, otherwise known as independent front suspension.

Yes, the only other kit available at that time was from Action Vans, beyond that i cant comment as to what their kit consists of or anything else as i havent looked at I-beam lift kits in 2 or 3 years now.

Yes, you must also lift the rear of the truck to keep the weight shift from unloading the front suspension and shifting weight to the rear when you lift it, especially on the Chinooks, otherwise the weight transfer to the rear will make the rear of the truck ride like its a covered wagon and your rearend will be bottoming out constantly. You can lift the rear with blocks within reason, or you can simply buy rearched springs that will lift the rear of the vehicle. Springs are the correct way to do it as they will give you more suspension travel versus using blocks which will give you more ground clearance but will not increase suspension travel. That said the E series trucks do have a limited amount of suspension travel off the showroom floor so anything you can do to increase that travel is going to be beneficial in terms of achieving better ride quality from the truck but not so much that you compromise the handling aspect or grossly lower your load carrying capacity unintentionally, Kind of becomes a balancing act of sorts i guess you could say. A tire with a taller sidewall will also help soften the ride, lowering the pressure in your tires instead of running them at max rated PSI will also help.

But there always seems to be a trade off at some point whenever you start modifying a vehicle from its original design and purpose. Such as... lower gas mileage, harsher ride quality, instability in higher winds, dog needs a ladder to get in truck, ect.... On the flip side you have to remind yourself why it is you modified or lifted the vehicle to begin with and what benefits you realized in doing so. Such as..... more ground clearance, no more smashed sewer outlet pipes, able to access more places, no more dragging the rear bumper when exiting TacoBell, wife is unable to climb into truck because it sits to high..... ect....

Again, im not here to bash on Weldtec, they have plenty of seemingly happy customers who say they are 100% happy with their rigs. Im only sharing my experience and the frustrations i had with my rig. The owner of Weldtec is a great guy and will go out of his way to do whatever his customers feel needs to be done to make things right and keep his customers happy. Mine was just one of those cases where things just didnt work no matter what was attempted.I didnt throw a fit and demand my money back or anything like that because i could see that Jeremy legitimately wanted to help resolve the issue and did everything within his power to help find a solution. But at some point it just becomes an exercise in futility and you just have to stop. Im certain if i had driven it back to Southern, California again he would have stuck it in the shop and did whatever needed to be done to correct the problem whatever it took. I just wasnt willing to make that drive again, i felt i had already invested enough time, money, and aggravation into the project. That doesnt mean you would have the same results with your rig.

[FatBuoy]

All makes sense, thank you. And sorry for bringing the aggravating experience back into your brain. I’ve been there, but not quite to that extreme. Frustrating, but to your point, at some point you just move on and maybe laugh about it later? Sounds like you have a cool project ahead with the 4wd. What I Was ultimately asking, you did answer and explain. You would be eliminating the I-Beams with the solid axle. And I can’t do that without the solid axle. I just have to determine, as with everything, if potentially compromising the ride quality is worth the extra clearance. Maybe I’ll just start with taller tires, as I’m not too far off from needing a set.

Side note- is yours the one with the 2008+ front-end pictured on the beach?

[markatherton]

I have had pretty good results converting to 4x4 using a donor Quigley van. The advantage is you are using a proven Quigley geometry. The Quigley conversion uses a solid axle coil spring set up. The conversion is easier if you find a Quigley that has the sealed bearing unit front hubs. Then all you need to do is source the front dually wheel adapters from Quigley. But I have also done the conversion using a pre sealed bearing unit (serviceable bearings) and did the front dually conversion via BUDD hubs. I like the idea of coil spring better than leaf as you pointed out. The Quigley lift is pretty modest. I would guess about 2.5 inches which I have found to be more than adequate. If you go this route I would recommend getting an entire Quigley van. There are more parts involved than you might think including all the reinforcement brackets. And yes it is difficult to find an entire Quigley van for a reasonable price. Usually they are the result of a rusted out body from the east coast or Midwest. I have converted three chinooks using donor quigleys and have not had any alignment issues. However you will never have as nice of a ride as the stock 2wd set up. I used a combination of parts to help the ride. I used rear leaf springs from weldtec; Front coils, Fox Shocks and steering stabilizer from Action van and, like ujoint offroad, I used an NV271 transfer case as opposed to the Borg Warner that quigleys use. I think Action would tell you the chinook is too heavy for an IFS suspension which is what they use. I did a TREMENDOUS amount of research before I undertook my conversion. My current rig is a 2000 concourse with 7.3 diesel with the aforementioned set up. Keep in mind, however I am a 35 year ford mechanic and I have an automotive shop. I was able to get a pretty good ride after reading Blue's blog about lowering the tire pressure. If I am not mistaken the rear dually tires ended up pretty close to 40 lbs which is what the manufacturer (BFG) called out given the chinook weight and 4 tires in the rear. I have read some people complaining about Quigley geometry problems. It is my belief these complaints are the result of people adding more lift, worn parts like ball joints, tie rod ends or worn out bushings, particularly track bar bushings. I know this sounds very complicated but it really is not. You just need to immerse yourself in it which it sounds like you my have already done. Happy to talk with you about this further if you like.

[Blue~Go]

Since I see Mark was typing as I was: Mark, sounds like I'll be talking to you if I decide to add 4WD at some point. Can you comment on any changes to regular highway or curvy paved road handling?

******************

I just have to determine, as with everything, if potentially compromising the ride quality is worth the extra clearance. Maybe I’ll just start with taller tires

Not saying whether you should or should not have 4WD. I might enjoy it myself! But just a few notes "for thought" on taking Chinooks off the pavement. I pretty much always camp off-pavement and I have no lift at all. Stock size tires. So although I get to many places (and back out!) of course I have found tons of places I could not (or chose not to) get to.

So what were my limiting factors?

1) Width.
Width probably accounts for the majority of places I might like to go but don't. Easily 60% of the total. Some of the ones I eschew I could do if I didn't mind scratches on the sides (but I do).

2) Departure angle.
This probably would be further down the list if I spent less time in the desert. Reason I say that is that height would come into play "up north" more often. There are no tall trees here to speak of though, so departure angle rises up to #2. When departure angle causes a problem it is almost always at that initial "dip" or waterway just as you leave one road for another. Sometimes in the desert it's where a wash line crosses. I can often set out some Lynx blocks (which I carry anyway for leveling) to keep the rear tires from dipping down so much. It's just the tail end of the long overhang that's the issue.

3) Tippy factor.
A road or surface has a camber that just feels too freaky to drive my "house" over.

4) Traction.
Sand. I air down since that's what I can do. But deep unexpected sand is going to suck me down.

5) Height.
Would be higher up the list if I spent a greater percentage of time up north vs. SW desert.

6) Clearance other than departure angle.
Rarely an issue for me personally.

One other factor I didn't enumerate is just the constant background low-level stress of taking a 10,000#, dually vehicle way out back of beyond, especially if solo. Who would tow me out if I broke down? What would it cost? (Most RV Road service contracts I know of only go some number of feet off pavement.) What might break? I still do it, but it's definitely something I think about. Chinooks can be a pain to tow even on the road.

I wrote the above not because there is any wrong (or right) answer, but just as food for thought as you contemplate mods. Don't let me discourage you at all from getting 4WD if you would like to. I might enjoy it myself

[dougm]

All makes sense, thank you. And sorry for bringing the aggravating experience back into your brain. I’ve been there, but not quite to that extreme. Frustrating, but to your point, at some point you just move on and maybe laugh about it later? Sounds like you have a cool project ahead with the 4wd. What I Was ultimately asking, you did answer and explain. You would be eliminating the I-Beams with the solid axle. And I can’t do that without the solid axle. I just have to determine, as with everything, if potentially compromising the ride quality is worth the extra clearance. Maybe I’ll just start with taller tires, as I’m not too far off from needing a set.

Side note- is yours the one with the 2008+ front-end pictured on the beach?

No, thats not my rig, mine is a 2005 Concourse. I have other posts on here someplace that have pictures but i dont recall what they are titled.

[dougm]

I have had pretty good results converting to 4x4 using a donor Quigley van. The advantage is you are using a proven Quigley geometry. The Quigley conversion uses a solid axle coil spring set up. The conversion is easier if you find a Quigley that has the sealed bearing unit front hubs. Then all you need to do is source the front dually wheel adapters from Quigley. But I have also done the conversion using a pre sealed bearing unit (serviceable bearings) and did the front dually conversion via BUDD hubs. I like the idea of coil spring better than leaf as you pointed out. The Quigley lift is pretty modest. I would guess about 2.5 inches which I have found to be more than adequate. If you go this route I would recommend getting an entire Quigley van. There are more parts involved than you might think including all the reinforcement brackets. And yes it is difficult to find an entire Quigley van for a reasonable price. Usually they are the result of a rusted out body from the east coast or Midwest. I have converted three chinooks using donor quigleys and have not had any alignment issues. However you will never have as nice of a ride as the stock 2wd set up. I used a combination of parts to help the ride. I used rear leaf springs from weldtec; Front coils, Fox Shocks and steering stabilizer from Action van and, like ujoint offroad, I used an NV271 transfer case as opposed to the Borg Warner that quigleys use. I think Action would tell you the chinook is too heavy for an IFS suspension which is what they use. I did a TREMENDOUS amount of research before I undertook my conversion. My current rig is a 2000 concourse with 7.3 diesel with the aforementioned set up. Keep in mind, however I am a 35 year ford mechanic and I have an automotive shop. I was able to get a pretty good ride after reading Blue's blog about lowering the tire pressure. If I am not mistaken the rear dually tires ended up pretty close to 40 lbs which is what the manufacturer (BFG) called out given the chinook weight and 4 tires in the rear. I have read some people complaining about Quigley geometry problems. It is my belief these complaints are the result of people adding more lift, worn parts like ball joints, tie rod ends or worn out bushings, particularly track bar bushings. I know this sounds very complicated but it really is not. You just need to immerse yourself in it which it sounds like you my have already done. Happy to talk with you about this further if you like.

I have mixed feelings about Quigley. I called them a few years back before i did the weldtec kit to enquire about having it converted by them to a 4x4. They told me they no longer convert vehicles over x number of years old, which is fine. But then i enquired about purchasing parts from them and was told unless i have a VIN number for a van they built they would not sell me anything. Just kinda hit me a bit sour...

If you get on the expeditionportal and sportsmobile forums, you will find tons of people complaining about their Quigley rigs and the poor suspension geometry, rusted out front radius arms, ect.... I dont own one so i can only read what they post about theirs. Im purchasing the brackets from MG to use the late model Dana60 front axle with coils, im going to get a diesel 4R100 because they use billet planetary gears and clutch drums versus aluminum in lesser units. Of course i cant use the diesel torque convertor because its not setup to work on a gas engine. I will mate that with the NV271 transfercase and have a custom exhaust Y pipe built to my specs from stainless steel. I dont like the idea of using an electronic conversion box to correct the rear VSS signal so im researching if its possible to machine a trigger wheel the proper diameter and tooth count for the 4x4 outputshaft, im also assuming that im going to have to have the tailhousing machined to work with the new trigger wheel.

Removing the I-beam suspension and installing the Dana60 and suspension is a no brainer and can be done in 2 days tops by myself. The tough part for me with my disabilities is going to be laying underneath on my back to get that heavy a** transmission lowered down and out and then getting the new one back up and in place. Its not that its complicated, its just that its so dam heavy and big that makes it a pain to do. The 4R100 doesnt have a flat pan to sit on a tranny jack and have it be stable. I may hire a couple guys off facebook marketplace to come over when i reach that point , i will get it all unbolted and ready to come out, have them crawl under and lift it down and out, then let them lift the new one up into position and then i will finish it up.

Course then theres the issue of track width with the Dana60, so i already have a machinist thats going to build me custom steel dually hubs to go from the 8x170 mm lug pattern to the 8x6.5 pattern. I know there are already some after market units available but i want the trac width to be the same as it is right now and thats going to require a custom built dually hub. The hub will also have two different size hubcentric diameters front and back due to the dana60 being an F350 the wheel center is 1mm larger than the E350. Seems like a pain but i dont wanna carry two spares and i dont want to change out the rearend on top of everything else.

[Blue~Go]

If you get on the expeditionportal and sportsmobile forums, you will find tons of people complaining about their Quigley rigs and the poor suspension geometry, rusted out front radius arms, ect.... I dont own one so i can only read what they post about theirs.

I know less than you, but I test drove a 1997 4WD van that I *really* wanted. But the steering and front suspension were absolutely SCARY for me to drive. I literally felt like it was taking my life in my hands. And it wasn't all worn out, as it had low mileage and was quite tidy. It was a Quigley conversion. I made some calls and did some research, and found out that their conversions have some big differences pre- and post- I think it was 2005 (maybe 2006?). Apparently it's the older ones that garner the standard complaints (maybe someone more into it can comment).

Sadly, I had to pass on that vehicle because the seller was asking the price for a fully 4WD converted van (which it was, technically), but for me to drive it I would have had to have it completely re-converted ($$ and plus the conversion looked like there would be waiting lists and difficult comms). (I didn't know about Mark A. then.)