Too bad there can't be a "perpetual charger" Wouldn't that be nice.
My guess is that most people, once they go to a system this size, would have an combo inverter/charger that does that automatically inside -- even if you have a manual source selection for Shore and Gen.
But as you say, you can set up with separate inverter and generator, as long as you do something a bit fancier in the switching (maybe your relay, or a multi pole switch).
3 electrical systems
Re: 3 electrical systems
1999 Concourse
Re: 3 electrical systems
This project raises the question "How did I live before Google?"
I found this product:
The ProMariner Digital Mobile Charge (Battery to Battery)
If I understand what I read it seems to fill the bill. Here is a link. http://www.promariner.com/en/05504.
If you click on "Marketing Resources" it leads to a PDF of the charge manual.
In the manual it lists:
Absorption rate of 14.6 volts, the Interstate asks for 14.8 volts
Float rate of 13.3 volts, the Interstate asks for 13.2 volts
Is this good or is it a "Close but no cigar?"
I have not found a remote read out for this as of yet.
It is available on Amazon for $421.00 or Del City for $131.00! Danger Will Robinson!!
If this works would I still need a 7622? If not should I insert one or two battery disconnects?
I found this product:
The ProMariner Digital Mobile Charge (Battery to Battery)
If I understand what I read it seems to fill the bill. Here is a link. http://www.promariner.com/en/05504.
If you click on "Marketing Resources" it leads to a PDF of the charge manual.
In the manual it lists:
Absorption rate of 14.6 volts, the Interstate asks for 14.8 volts
Float rate of 13.3 volts, the Interstate asks for 13.2 volts
Is this good or is it a "Close but no cigar?"
I have not found a remote read out for this as of yet.
It is available on Amazon for $421.00 or Del City for $131.00! Danger Will Robinson!!
If this works would I still need a 7622? If not should I insert one or two battery disconnects?
Riste
1997 Concourse 460
1997 Concourse 460
Re: 3 electrical systems
Just so you know, ProCharge is basically Sterling (but the graphics are less ugly). Sometimes I have found that the Sterling instructions are a bit better.
Anyway, I read quickly through the manual for this. Here are my thoughts.
1) Geez, over $400 and it only has presets, only puts out 40 amps, and you'll have to carry long jumper cables if you want to self-jump start*
2) Amazingly, the AGM preset is exactly right for Lifeline batteries. I've never seen that before (not that you have those). Maybe they planned it that way (but I still think no customizable settings for that price is annoying).
3) Says it does have remote temp comp, so that's good. And an alternator temperature gizmo, although at 40 amps I don't see you having any likely issue.
So, you would know you are getting the extra two stages (absorption and float). Absorb is a bit low, which is a bit of a bummer, but then it's still higher than "raw" alternator charging. It would probably give you 10% of the last 15% of charging if you want to look at it that way. Float is fine, I think.
Looks like you would want to carry jumper cables or a jump pack for yourself. I carry a jump pack anyway because I prefer not to hook my Chinook up to other people's vehicles (plus a few times I've walked the jump pack over - or loaned it to someone - and not had to move camp). I still do carry cables, but just a thin, small pair vs. the really big nice ones I used to carry. BUT, the self jump start is nice, because it's super quick. Also, for voltage drop you'd have largish cables anyway. (Again, what is with their cable recommendations?! They say 2AWG for 50 feet. Let's do the math: 50 feet, 2AWG, 40 amps. That's 5.5% voltage drop. I know, doesn't sound like much, but tenths count in charging. Your 14.6 that was already supposed to be 14.8? It's now 13.9.
Now granted, there is a little bit of an "out" on that. When you hit absorption, you won't be putting in 40 amps, so the voltage drop will be less. But there is still bulk, which will be at 40 amps. So okay, not saying it's a crisis, but why would you *recommend* that to innocent customers? Wouldn't you assume that someone who just spend over $400 on a specific B2B charger would want to start with the best size wire if they could? Maybe cut it down a bit of they want to (but knowingly)? Okay, pet peeve.
Anyway, if you have a 30' run, at 40 amps, and you run 1/0, you'll have about 2.25% drop at 13 volts and 40 amps; or 2/0 would give you 1.8% at 13 volts and 40 amps. This is not to say there is a big problem with running 2AWG, at 30' -- that's 3.6% at 13 volts and 40 amps. It just annoys me that that's what they recommend as best practice (at 50'!).
One thing you might want to consider is if you ever decide to replace this unit and want to let more amps through (or self jump start), then you will want wire big enough to fuse for the starter draw (which means a 200 amp fuse on the V10), and for whatever amperage you might want to charge at (if you didn't have the B2B). Running the wire wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not something I'd like to do again. Actually, for me, it's securing it that's always the annoying part. Working overhead...
Back to this unit, it looks like it has the relay built in.
I don't see exactly how it combines (7622 is magnetic latching), but I didn't look that closely and I see it has some kind of fancy "I go to sleep after X minutes of 12.x volts, then wake up at 13 volts, then after three minutes of charging I combine" function. So it sounds like the tare load is low or zero, but I didn't look at that.
***********
Okay, after all that: It says maximum input current is 45 amps. Most "loads" pull power, it doesn't get "pushed" to them, so this may be fine with your 200 amp alternator (after all, you can hook up a load with a 15 amp fuse to a huge battery bank, and the bank doesn't "push" 200 amps in and blow the fuse. The load "pulls" its small amount of power. It's probably the same for this. But you could give a holler to Sterling/ProCharge to see what they say.
PS: Forgot to address disconnects. Next post so I can stop editing this one.
Anyway, I read quickly through the manual for this. Here are my thoughts.
1) Geez, over $400 and it only has presets, only puts out 40 amps, and you'll have to carry long jumper cables if you want to self-jump start*
2) Amazingly, the AGM preset is exactly right for Lifeline batteries. I've never seen that before (not that you have those). Maybe they planned it that way (but I still think no customizable settings for that price is annoying).
3) Says it does have remote temp comp, so that's good. And an alternator temperature gizmo, although at 40 amps I don't see you having any likely issue.
So, you would know you are getting the extra two stages (absorption and float). Absorb is a bit low, which is a bit of a bummer, but then it's still higher than "raw" alternator charging. It would probably give you 10% of the last 15% of charging if you want to look at it that way. Float is fine, I think.
Looks like you would want to carry jumper cables or a jump pack for yourself. I carry a jump pack anyway because I prefer not to hook my Chinook up to other people's vehicles (plus a few times I've walked the jump pack over - or loaned it to someone - and not had to move camp). I still do carry cables, but just a thin, small pair vs. the really big nice ones I used to carry. BUT, the self jump start is nice, because it's super quick. Also, for voltage drop you'd have largish cables anyway. (Again, what is with their cable recommendations?! They say 2AWG for 50 feet. Let's do the math: 50 feet, 2AWG, 40 amps. That's 5.5% voltage drop. I know, doesn't sound like much, but tenths count in charging. Your 14.6 that was already supposed to be 14.8? It's now 13.9.
Now granted, there is a little bit of an "out" on that. When you hit absorption, you won't be putting in 40 amps, so the voltage drop will be less. But there is still bulk, which will be at 40 amps. So okay, not saying it's a crisis, but why would you *recommend* that to innocent customers? Wouldn't you assume that someone who just spend over $400 on a specific B2B charger would want to start with the best size wire if they could? Maybe cut it down a bit of they want to (but knowingly)? Okay, pet peeve.
Anyway, if you have a 30' run, at 40 amps, and you run 1/0, you'll have about 2.25% drop at 13 volts and 40 amps; or 2/0 would give you 1.8% at 13 volts and 40 amps. This is not to say there is a big problem with running 2AWG, at 30' -- that's 3.6% at 13 volts and 40 amps. It just annoys me that that's what they recommend as best practice (at 50'!).
One thing you might want to consider is if you ever decide to replace this unit and want to let more amps through (or self jump start), then you will want wire big enough to fuse for the starter draw (which means a 200 amp fuse on the V10), and for whatever amperage you might want to charge at (if you didn't have the B2B). Running the wire wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not something I'd like to do again. Actually, for me, it's securing it that's always the annoying part. Working overhead...
Back to this unit, it looks like it has the relay built in.
I don't see exactly how it combines (7622 is magnetic latching), but I didn't look that closely and I see it has some kind of fancy "I go to sleep after X minutes of 12.x volts, then wake up at 13 volts, then after three minutes of charging I combine" function. So it sounds like the tare load is low or zero, but I didn't look at that.
***********
Okay, after all that: It says maximum input current is 45 amps. Most "loads" pull power, it doesn't get "pushed" to them, so this may be fine with your 200 amp alternator (after all, you can hook up a load with a 15 amp fuse to a huge battery bank, and the bank doesn't "push" 200 amps in and blow the fuse. The load "pulls" its small amount of power. It's probably the same for this. But you could give a holler to Sterling/ProCharge to see what they say.
PS: Forgot to address disconnects. Next post so I can stop editing this one.
1999 Concourse
Re: 3 electrical systems
Switches/cut-offs:
People use switches for various reasons. Sometimes to cut off the batteries from everything (ABYC likes to see this), sometimes to direct power.
I do like a battery cut-off on my house bank. I like to know I can flip a switch and they are OUT of business. (The Chinook "store" switch leaves some loads connected, tho they don't tell you which ones). So I always have a main switch on my house bank. You can still choose to have some "hot" loads on the other side of the switch if you want to. Chinook for example did the propane sensor, but I don't see the need when the coach is in storage (I shut propane off, and no-one is there to hear it anyway.)
I don't have a switch on my start battery. Not that I would mind one. But, my battery compartment is fairly crowded already, and I don't seem to have phantom loads (no problem starting after sitting with no charge on them). About once every year or two I leave the rig, at which time I remove the negative start cable. That's where I could use a switch potentially and save myself that trouble. If you are storing more often, or have phantom loads, then sure, a switch.
I also like a manual lockout (which could be a switch) on the combiner wire, so that I know when power can, or cannot, come along that wire (if I'm working on stuff say).
******
You know, I"m just thinking out loud here, but I'm not loving any of the products we've talked about so far for B2B charging. Maybe there is a better one out there. OTOH, if it were me? As much as I advocate for good charging, I would be tempted to at least try it without a B2B charger (at least of the crop we have seen so far). Why?
This would be with the following givens:
1) Run a Scan Gauge II (which is wonderful for many things - oh, can you run one? Do you have a 1996 or newer engine? If so then yes). Then you can see from the driver's seat what voltage your alternator is putting out.
2) Run heavy enough wire, properly fused, to both charge and self-jump start.
3) Have a manual switch or something like a 7622 in the line (preferably with control from the dash).
4) Battery bank that is not going to suck your alternator dry (no problem with flooded bank of 225ah, I don't believe).
5) Consider cost of replacing battery bank say, 25% sooner than otherwise, worst case.
So let's say you do the above.
a) Everything looks fine, the charging is going well. Great.
b) After observing for awhile, something doesn't end up looking good (alternator voltage, you get to your camp spot and batteries are still way too low, etc.) --- then you add a B2B
c) Everything looks more or less fine but the slightly sub-optimal charging makes it so your batteries only last 75% as long as they would have. But how much money is that when you are running relatively cheap flooded cell batteries? And you won't be in The Sahara away from stores for months on end. Maybe you'd have a different use in mind by then anyway? And of course maybe it wouldn't even be the culprit (maybe your bank is too small and you run it down to 50% DOD constantly and THAT is what kills them prematurely).
I don't know - I'm just thinking out loud, and so far that's my gut feeling. I guess I just haven't been thrilled with any of the products we've seen. Maybe there is something better.
People use switches for various reasons. Sometimes to cut off the batteries from everything (ABYC likes to see this), sometimes to direct power.
I do like a battery cut-off on my house bank. I like to know I can flip a switch and they are OUT of business. (The Chinook "store" switch leaves some loads connected, tho they don't tell you which ones). So I always have a main switch on my house bank. You can still choose to have some "hot" loads on the other side of the switch if you want to. Chinook for example did the propane sensor, but I don't see the need when the coach is in storage (I shut propane off, and no-one is there to hear it anyway.)
I don't have a switch on my start battery. Not that I would mind one. But, my battery compartment is fairly crowded already, and I don't seem to have phantom loads (no problem starting after sitting with no charge on them). About once every year or two I leave the rig, at which time I remove the negative start cable. That's where I could use a switch potentially and save myself that trouble. If you are storing more often, or have phantom loads, then sure, a switch.
I also like a manual lockout (which could be a switch) on the combiner wire, so that I know when power can, or cannot, come along that wire (if I'm working on stuff say).
******
You know, I"m just thinking out loud here, but I'm not loving any of the products we've talked about so far for B2B charging. Maybe there is a better one out there. OTOH, if it were me? As much as I advocate for good charging, I would be tempted to at least try it without a B2B charger (at least of the crop we have seen so far). Why?
This would be with the following givens:
1) Run a Scan Gauge II (which is wonderful for many things - oh, can you run one? Do you have a 1996 or newer engine? If so then yes). Then you can see from the driver's seat what voltage your alternator is putting out.
2) Run heavy enough wire, properly fused, to both charge and self-jump start.
3) Have a manual switch or something like a 7622 in the line (preferably with control from the dash).
4) Battery bank that is not going to suck your alternator dry (no problem with flooded bank of 225ah, I don't believe).
5) Consider cost of replacing battery bank say, 25% sooner than otherwise, worst case.
So let's say you do the above.
a) Everything looks fine, the charging is going well. Great.
b) After observing for awhile, something doesn't end up looking good (alternator voltage, you get to your camp spot and batteries are still way too low, etc.) --- then you add a B2B
c) Everything looks more or less fine but the slightly sub-optimal charging makes it so your batteries only last 75% as long as they would have. But how much money is that when you are running relatively cheap flooded cell batteries? And you won't be in The Sahara away from stores for months on end. Maybe you'd have a different use in mind by then anyway? And of course maybe it wouldn't even be the culprit (maybe your bank is too small and you run it down to 50% DOD constantly and THAT is what kills them prematurely).
I don't know - I'm just thinking out loud, and so far that's my gut feeling. I guess I just haven't been thrilled with any of the products we've seen. Maybe there is something better.
1999 Concourse
Re: 3 electrical systems
Your last post helped put things in perspective for me.
I've been obsessing with this part of the electrical system, probably because I have a blank slate at this time and I hope to do this only once (LOL).
It seems to make more sense to do the 7622 type thing and put any savings into the solar system, and a scan gauge (there goes any savings already).
Sitting in my garage is a piece of 1/0 waiting to do its thing (right size?)
I've been obsessing with this part of the electrical system, probably because I have a blank slate at this time and I hope to do this only once (LOL).
It seems to make more sense to do the 7622 type thing and put any savings into the solar system, and a scan gauge (there goes any savings already).
Sitting in my garage is a piece of 1/0 waiting to do its thing (right size?)
Riste
1997 Concourse 460
1997 Concourse 460
Re: 3 electrical systems
I'd say you are on the right track (of course there is more than one right track - darnitall!).
Not to say two flooded batteries is an expense to ignore, but it's not like a $3,000 lithium bank, and if you muff up and it doesn't last quite as long as it could have, you are not out the world* My guess is that where you are going to be glad you put more into it is --- as you say --- more solar, more gauges/information, re-usable wire size, better more-efficient lighting, fridge compressor optimization, etc.
But I also get your urge to do it once, and do it right. I have that too!
I think 1/0 is just big enough. 2/0 would be better with that long run (do your best to minimize the length), but it's not like 1/0 is a string. Also, 1/0 is the first size you can comfortably fuse to 200+ amps for self jump starting. Don't forget to also upsize the two negative jumpers that go from the two battery banks to the chassis ground.
If you go with the 7622, and your solar is keeping up, then you don't even have to combine (you have the option of course). You can see how it goes. Also, you can always add a B2B. If you really thought you were going to add a B2B, and you didn't want to "waste" the money on the 7622, you could use a manual switch like I do. The only real "danger" is leaving it combined while you are camping and running down the start battery, but there are reasons that is either not likely to happen or not a problem. One is that I have a flashing red LED light in the living room when it is combined. Can't see it from driving but pretty hard to miss after I "retire" to the coach. Two is that I watch my house bank with gauges, so even if I left things combined I'm not likely to run EITHER bank down too low. Third backstop is the jump pack. But so far I have never left it combined (hard to ignore flashing red light).
I do prefer to start the engine with it uncombined (it draws down the voltage of the house bank - not a huge big deal with my big house bank, but ... I just prefer not to). And I can't reach my current switch from the driver's seat, so that's something I might change (would change for sure if using combiner often). That's not to say not to use a 7622 - they are a nice product and do it all for you. Just an option, especially if you think you might change to a B2B which might duplicate that function.
BG
*Contrast to 20 years ago when I took off boating: Budget pretty drained, plus no place to even buy new batteries if I could afford them. Naturally we stretched our budget before leaving and sprung for AGM (which at the time were very expensive and new), and naturally we killed them within a year, mostly due to excessive DOD (we cheaped out on the gauges), partly due to poor charging with excessive voltage drop..... but what did we know?
Not to say two flooded batteries is an expense to ignore, but it's not like a $3,000 lithium bank, and if you muff up and it doesn't last quite as long as it could have, you are not out the world* My guess is that where you are going to be glad you put more into it is --- as you say --- more solar, more gauges/information, re-usable wire size, better more-efficient lighting, fridge compressor optimization, etc.
But I also get your urge to do it once, and do it right. I have that too!
I think 1/0 is just big enough. 2/0 would be better with that long run (do your best to minimize the length), but it's not like 1/0 is a string. Also, 1/0 is the first size you can comfortably fuse to 200+ amps for self jump starting. Don't forget to also upsize the two negative jumpers that go from the two battery banks to the chassis ground.
If you go with the 7622, and your solar is keeping up, then you don't even have to combine (you have the option of course). You can see how it goes. Also, you can always add a B2B. If you really thought you were going to add a B2B, and you didn't want to "waste" the money on the 7622, you could use a manual switch like I do. The only real "danger" is leaving it combined while you are camping and running down the start battery, but there are reasons that is either not likely to happen or not a problem. One is that I have a flashing red LED light in the living room when it is combined. Can't see it from driving but pretty hard to miss after I "retire" to the coach. Two is that I watch my house bank with gauges, so even if I left things combined I'm not likely to run EITHER bank down too low. Third backstop is the jump pack. But so far I have never left it combined (hard to ignore flashing red light).
I do prefer to start the engine with it uncombined (it draws down the voltage of the house bank - not a huge big deal with my big house bank, but ... I just prefer not to). And I can't reach my current switch from the driver's seat, so that's something I might change (would change for sure if using combiner often). That's not to say not to use a 7622 - they are a nice product and do it all for you. Just an option, especially if you think you might change to a B2B which might duplicate that function.
BG
*Contrast to 20 years ago when I took off boating: Budget pretty drained, plus no place to even buy new batteries if I could afford them. Naturally we stretched our budget before leaving and sprung for AGM (which at the time were very expensive and new), and naturally we killed them within a year, mostly due to excessive DOD (we cheaped out on the gauges), partly due to poor charging with excessive voltage drop..... but what did we know?
1999 Concourse
Re: 3 electrical systems
Before ordering a Scan Gauge I decided to locate the plug for it under the dash. Couldn't find it, found an EEC test port under the hood. Checked the door and found out our "97" was built on a chassis that was assembled Jan. 1995. Bummer
Riste
1997 Concourse 460
1997 Concourse 460
Re: 3 electrical systems
Oh how annoying! (But then maybe you have the amber turn signals in the taillights - that's a plus.)
But all is not lost for your combiner system. You can still see the incoming voltage while you are driving by looking at the house battery monitor. Hmm, maybe this is a point for the Victron BMV monitor as you could have the round gauge in the back, but look at your phone at the dash because they also have a phone gauge (bluetooth). Plus not have the "busy" looking Trimetric (unless you already own it).
Of course once you get a feel for it you won't necessarily need to monitor that at the dash.
But grrrrr on missing out on the other functions of the Scan gauge. Hmmph!
But all is not lost for your combiner system. You can still see the incoming voltage while you are driving by looking at the house battery monitor. Hmm, maybe this is a point for the Victron BMV monitor as you could have the round gauge in the back, but look at your phone at the dash because they also have a phone gauge (bluetooth). Plus not have the "busy" looking Trimetric (unless you already own it).
Of course once you get a feel for it you won't necessarily need to monitor that at the dash.
But grrrrr on missing out on the other functions of the Scan gauge. Hmmph!
1999 Concourse
Re: 3 electrical systems
Don't fear; you can get a code reader for your year.Riste wrote: January 19th, 2019, 5:13 pm Before ordering a Scan Gauge I decided to locate the plug for it under the dash. Couldn't find it, found an EEC test port under the hood. Checked the door and found out our "97" was built on a chassis that was assembled Jan. 1995. Bummer
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E ... chsides-20
For trans temp, I run a dedicated gauge. My eyes prefer backlit needles versus LCD/LED numbers, especially for a quick glance. As long as the needle is to the left of 12 o'clock, we're cool, and that's something I can monitor peripherally with little consideration. A mandatory instrument IMO. Pretty basic to install:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006 ... chsides-20
You can get a panel mount volt meter on ebay for next to nothing.
Tachometer? Meh. I have no use for one in this application, so I haven't bothered, but the same type of panel mount meters are available readily, wired directly to the coil.
For MPG (when I decide to care anymore), I use the Fulio app for near-perfect accuracy and logging.
Scangauges are great, and a breeze to install, but I'm just re-posting this (interrupting) to mention that even with OBD1, you can get the info you need with a little DIY or money.
1994 Premier
Re: 3 electrical systems
That's valuable info, Scott. Not an interruption!
I consider trans temp to be a major plus, especially if towing, driving in hot weather with AC on, or doing mountain passes (or all three!). I also like actual water temp (vs. the no-doubt-damped gauge on the dash).
Duh, forgot about just using a cheapie voltmeter. OTOH, if you have the regular battery meter (or the bluetooth display) you can also see how many amps are going from alternator to house bank. Or both
I do love my info.
(And Scott, I hear you on needles. They are to gauges as knobs are to radios!)
I consider trans temp to be a major plus, especially if towing, driving in hot weather with AC on, or doing mountain passes (or all three!). I also like actual water temp (vs. the no-doubt-damped gauge on the dash).
Duh, forgot about just using a cheapie voltmeter. OTOH, if you have the regular battery meter (or the bluetooth display) you can also see how many amps are going from alternator to house bank. Or both
I do love my info.(And Scott, I hear you on needles. They are to gauges as knobs are to radios!)
1999 Concourse