Solar

Split from General / Technical for discussion of anything electrical, electronic... 12v, Inverter, Satellite, Headlights, flashlights etc.
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Blue~Go
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Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

Scott's on the money, as usual.

Defining your use case is step one (which you did). If you don't want a system that has to do six opposite things, so much the better. What I mean is, like if you want a boat that you can trailer with a Prius, sleeps six, can explore shallow water creeks, and can cross oceans. That's a tough boat to find, and even if you could it would have a huge number of compromises. My primary use case is boondocking; yours is touring, mostly power post to power post, but with some one or two night dry camping. Great, it's defined.

In this case I'd say 200 watts sounds good. If you were in a consistently sunny area, and only in summer, I bet 100 would do. But with the price of panels being what it is (and yet batteries still being expensive), I see no need to cut it to the bare minimum.

Since you'll be on the move frequently, roof mounting makes sense (as long as every one of your campsites isn't in major shade). Since you'll be plugging in a lot, you can either go with the "my charger is nothing special but I'll just buy batteries once a year," or "I'm going to buy decent batteries and want them to last so I'll upgrade my charger." At least those are two approaches.

One thing I'm not sure of is your use of high draw appliances when dry camping, but we'll assume generator use for those.

I think what I'd focus on is the following:

1) Upgrade the safety aspects. For example, make sure that you can/do fuse each wire. Main battery fuses should have an AIC rating at least as high as the short circuit amperage of your battery bank.

2) I like battery switches, so they can be cut off if necessary. I also don't like seventeen cables going to each battery post (hence bus bars).

3) Carry out your charger plan (whatever upgrade path you decide on).

4) Check voltage drop so that you don't have any built in that you don't want there (you up wire size or shorten runs until the voltage drop gets to an acceptable level).

5) Mount 200 watts on the roof, run wiring and appropriate fusing, install solar controller.

6) Depending on whether you go "good batteries to last" or "cheap batteries and replace when they die," you may want to get a battery monitor. The good ones have come down in price (whereas batteries have not!).

I'm going to encourage you to consider doing it yourself if you are comfortable with it (or if you can get comfortable with it). Reason I say that is it is not rocket science, and there are knowledgeable folks here to talk to about it. I know there are some real pros out there, but despite that, I've seen so many sub-par installations. Excessive voltage drop, silicone globs, poorly planned controller location, inadequate fusing, etc. I'm not a pro (far from it), but when I do my own work I have two big advantages: One is that I don't have to account for every (billable) minute of my time; and two is that I can take the time to learn things and also to make those little tweaks that give a nicer installation (and once I have knowledge I can use it over and over again). I guess that's three :)

I do get that there is nothing wrong with hiring things out. So on the other hand I shouldn't discourage you from doing that, I know.

Actually I'm in a similar boat right now. I'm trying to get my head around lithium batteries and their charging considerations (for a boat project not the Chinook... yet), and it's kind of like I'm going back to square one as they are different from lead acid batteries in many ways. It's like I have to break my "lead head" ways of thinking. Part of me wishes I could just hire someone to figure it all out for me! (But on the other hand I want the knowledge...)

Scott: Thanks for that photo of the 100 watt on your roof. That looks darned good!

When I said brackets in from the end what I meant (but didn't say well) was that oftentimes the brackets are put on the short ends (as you did), but the "standard placement" is to put them right out at the edges. Since brackets often flare a bit at the bottom (such as AM solar brackets), if you put them right at the edge on the inside short ends (by the hump), then they hold the panel a couple of inches away from the hump, so more overhang. I'll be mounting mine just far enough inward so that the panel can snug up to the hump like yours does. (And then of course on the outboard side they have to be in a bit further so they hit roof not air.)
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HoosierB
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Re: Solar

Post by HoosierB »

This kit may be a good start... :?:
Price seems decent.

https://www.renogy.com/renogy-200-watt- ... _prd-specs
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Blue~Go
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Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

I know you can already hear me saying this (but I will anyway ;) ), but I just don't see the kits being good value. So this kit has the Eclipse panels, which are nice, but the rest....

The kit is $720. Let's look at the contents.

1) Two Eclipse panels ($400 total - $199 apiece - if bought separately on Amazon).
2) A "Tracer" controller that I'd have to research to find out the details, but you could buy an MPPT controller that made by a well known controller specialty company, is fully adjustable (for now or future, not just by choosing a named setpoint like "AGM" that may or may not be right), has temp comp, and is made by a known excellent controller company. Examples:

a) Blue Sky 2512 ix-HV = $225
a 1) Basic Remote display = $80
a 2) Super cool Remote display that is also a shunted battery monitor and allows you to program (big plus if you don't use Windows especially, but nice any time). = $198 (but then no need to buy separate battery monitor)

b) Blue Sky SB3000i = $225
b 1) Not my favorite, as the controller is also the display, and I like the controller near the batteries and the display elsewhere. But still a good controller.

c) Morningstar Sunsaver 15 MPPT = $240
c 1) Remote display = $70

There are some other nice controllers, but I didn't list them for various reasons. For example, the Victron 75/15 for $88, and then either their MPPT control display (forget price) or their Bluetooth dongle smartphone display, which is pretty slick, for $60. I LOVE this controller! BUT, they do not have a remote temperature sensor. To me that's an issue as although my controller is 1" from my batteries (other side of a 3/4" board), it is usually MUCh warmer than my batteries during charging hours. This is because it heats up quickly in the morning being a small thing, whereas my lead battery bank stays at nighttime temps until most of the day's charging is done. With lithium batteries, there is no temp comp needed, so I'll finally be able to use Victron's slick chargers if I want to (when that happens). The Midnight is another controller with display built in (but less slick mounting than the Blue Sky), and is larger than you need. Etc.

3) Eight Z brackets
I'm not a huge fan of Z brackets because you can never get under the panels (unless you want to unscrew them). So no getting to connectors, cleaning roof, etc. And no tilting (although you may not want to do this anyway). I like the AM Solar brackets, but they are very expensive and I'm slightly uncomfortable with the small area of the "feet" for VHB use (tape you attach them to the roof with). I "made" my own brackets that are a similar style but have a larger foot area (by "made" I mean that I ordered the angle I wanted from Mcmaster Carr, brought it to a metal cutting place and had them cut (better than I could) the shapes out, then sent them to an anodizer just to be fancy. Still a lot cheaper than the AM Solar brackets, like four times the foot area, and also the AM solar bracket holes weren't quite where I wanted them to be (they really come into their own on curved roofs which I don't have).

4) Some wire and connectors. Is the wire tinned? What is the temperature rating? What gauge is it? How long are your runs? How are the connections made? How do they know what size ring terminals you want and where they are? I'd posit that the way to go is draw out what you want (location of components). Measure the runs. Take five minutes to run things through a voltage drop calculator to see what size wire you want (voltage drop is like a thief stealing your hard-earned solar power that you just took in). Then buy the wire you need. If you are going to get into more electrical work, consider buying good tools and then either keeping them or selling them on eBay or similar.

The wire I see is listed "Tray Cables." These are typically the black, slightly stiff, solar type cables of 10 or 12 AWG. They have MC4 connectors on them. If you want to use these, you can easily buy them on Amazon in the lengths you need for not too much money. I prefer something like Ancor for inside (and would use higher gauge in any case). I still prefer something like Ancor on the roof, but would use the "tray cables" if I didn't need larger than 10AWG possibly (but I think you will likely want larger especially if you wire in parallel). If you want to use "tray cables" and you need an MC4 on one end, and a bare wire (for a ring terminal) on the other end, you can buy one long tray cable extension with an MC4 on each end and cut it in half.

I guess I'm just not seeing the value of the kit.

--Two eclipse solar panels: Great, those are excellent panels.

--One Tracer controller. I don't know a lot about this controller, so would have to research. But I can't help thinking that I'd rather CHOOSE a controller, likely one made by one of the excellent controller specialty companies (maybe Tracer is one?). I'd be looking to Morningstar and Blue Sky. I really like their 2512 I listed above (that specific model number not the similar one), with the IPN remote. It's a great controller, totally customizable, will use "end amps" to change from absorb to float (very nice), you can adjust parameters from the display (not from a clunky Windows program), AND it has a shunt and built in battery monitor. Very slick. I have the Morningstar Sunsaver 15 and it is also a nice controller and has a few little advantages over the Blue Sky (plus I already had a Victron monitor), but lacks other nice touches the Blue Sky has. Either of them will handle the voltage if you want to put two 100 watt panels in series.

-- Some very basic brackets that may not do what you want them to (and/or can be bought separately).

-- Some tray cable that is easily bought separately and may not be the gauge and length you want. Also the ring terminals may not be the right size.

-- An ANL fuse. Do you want an ANL use vs. another style? Who says you want that amperage?

I guess to me I just don't see the value. I think you could do a lot better choosing separate components, plus the exact wire that is best for you. Not saying this wouldn't work; I'm sure it would. I just don't see the magic in the kit.

Last note is that I don't have time right now to research the Tracer controller. My hunch is you'd do better choosing your own, but I can't back that up with data unless I spend some time checking it out.

I'd be happy to help you out with length of runs vs. voltage drop/ampacity/etc. if you like (not that it's hard, I just use calculators and ampacity tables).
Last edited by Blue~Go on March 22nd, 2017, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Scott
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Re: Solar

Post by Scott »

Blue~Go wrote:... when I do my own work I have two big advantages: One is that I don't have to account for every (billable) minute of my time; and two is that I can take the time to learn things and also to make those little tweaks that give a nicer installation (and once I have knowledge I can use it over and over again). I guess that's three :)
Oh exactly. And there are four advantages!! As the designer and installer, you're the most qualified to troubleshoot. Being intimately acquainted with the system has a huge value both in usage and repair. And if you do cut a corner somewhere, at least YOU know where and why, and how to fix it if needed. Mysteries are troubling.

Hoosier, re that Renogy kit you posted. I guess it's the control freak in me, but I don't like bundles either. I like to pick and chose and specify each component... unless I'm in a hurry or there's financial motivation, and both tend to happen frequently in my line of work. Cabling and fusing are unique to each setup, which is unique to each vehicle, which is unique to each user. Renogy can't make those decisions for you, so the cables and protection are a bit silly to include in the kit. They offer this stuff to appeal to the human desire for convenience, which is fine but not ideal. I realize it may sound as if I'm contradicting myself as a bundle-byer, but I have two excuses! 1) My bundle consisted of a pair of parallel connectors, some MC4s, two panels, and a 30 amp PWM controller with temp. comp. capability, all for the cost of the panels alone (if purchased separately), so the bits-and-bobs were free. The kit was $285 at the time, and one of the panels was slightly dented, so they knocked off $85. Can't complain. 2) I was under the gun to get my system installed and running, and running well. I did have to spec. fuses, cable, and a little panel. BTW, once you get your hands on that Ancor duplex, you'll know where your money went. Outstanding stuff, and I would settle for nothing less, especially since this is the one component that will likely never need upgrading, will "never" wear out, and is the biggest chore in the installation process. In short, source your own cable. BGs points are all valid. Just read through a couple times if that's what it takes to digest. It may seem a bit intimidating at first, but it's all doable.

Going camping!!!!
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HoosierB
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Re: Solar

Post by HoosierB »

Okay...no kit. It was the "convenience factor" that was compelling me and my limited knowledge of doing this type of install.
Thanks for all the input.
Now I need to do some homework....
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Blue~Go
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Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

Sorry we killed the easy way out for you :lol:
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kdarling
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Re: Solar

Post by kdarling »

HoosierB wrote:Okay...no kit. It was the "convenience factor" that was compelling me and my limited knowledge of doing this type of install.
While everyone's right that you could come up with a more custom setup, personally I don't see anything wrong with that kit.

Renogy is well known. That kit has nice panels, decent gauge wires, an MPPT controller with good reviews, and a nice remote with decent display and the ability to program the controller. (Read the remote manual in your link.)

It's not overpriced. You can also buy an optional temp probe for the batteries.

If you just want the concenience of a decent system kit without having to research a lot, it looks pretty good to me.

Kev
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Blue~Go
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Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

I see what you're saying. But, the length, gauge, and connectors for the wires are unlikely to be correct for the Chinook project (they can't possibly know your wire runs, what size your lugs are, what fuses you need for your installation). So you'd want to get your own, specific to what you were doing.

So the useful kit is basically the two panels and the controller (if that's the one you want) and the brackets (if you want Z style brackets). That's $400 for the panels (they are $199 apiece on Amazon), $32 for eight brackets (if those same ones are bought separately) and then the rest for the controller. Maybe that's the exact controller and brackets Hoosier wants (and nothing wrong with that); but on the other hand, I don't really see a cost savings over any of the other controllers, one of which he might prefer. Without a whole lot to gain, I don't see why to be locked into that one controller, and those specific brackets - nor do I really see a lot of convenience over a few separate clicks - but that's just me. Maybe if it were 60% of normal retail cost or something (but I still would want wires and fusing sized for my specific electrical system, which they don't know about).

Or maybe I'm just a curmudgeon :lol:
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HoosierB
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Re: Solar

Post by HoosierB »

I really like this forum when it comes to varied opinions and helpful advice. Much appreciated.

To allow time to digest info and educate myself (and maintain some sanity), I decided to approach my upgrade in steps:
• maintain existing wiring and LVD for now
• do the PD4645 retrofit
• replace roof solar panel with one Renogy Eclipse 100w
• replace/controller charger with something like a Sunforce 60023 30amp (temporary and inexpensive, but more efficient than existing with no modifications for fit)

Initially this is just a "plug'n play" stage. Eventually getting to my goal of a 200w system would be adding the additional Renogy 100w panel, appropriate wiring, charger/controller, monitor, etc.
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HoosierB
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Re: Solar

Post by HoosierB »

Blue~Go wrote:Eight Z brackets: I'm not a huge fan of Z brackets because you can never get under the panels (unless you want to unscrew them).
Good observation.
What about "smart feet"? A basic two-part bracket.
Smart_Feet_RV_Solar_Panel_Mounts-500x500.jpg
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